Fourth Wing

Join us as we enter Basgiath War College! 
 Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros is a romantasy sensation, building a fantastical world and characters that seized the imaginations of booktok, bookstagram, and even readers not on social media!
 Jen and Ellie review the world building, plot, language and characters (spoilers and all!) before facing off against the greatest challenges in the book. For a first episode this will really be a trial by fire🔥

 Let's see if we survive this!

Transcript

Jen: [00:00:00] Hi and welcome to If We Survive This, a podcast where we read fantasy books and discuss how likely we'd be to survive the challenges in them. A quick warning that this podcast is filled with spoilers for all aspects of the book. I'm Jen, the slightly more bookish side of the podcast, though I do have some fitness credentials.

Ellie: And I'm Ellie. I could survive in the wild for weeks as long as I have a good audiobook. 

Jen: Today we're discussing Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros. Let's see if we survive this. So a quick summary, we follow Violet Sorrengail as she enters the Riders Quadrant at Basgiath War College. Although she had trained as a scribe, her mother, a general, forced her to train as a dragonrider, which is basically a death sentence, especially considering Violet has a disability, which is generally agreed to be EDS, that makes her more prone to injury.

While there, she meets up with her childhood friend Dain Aetos, who she always had a crush on, and meets Xaden Riorson, her sworn enemy. Violet progresses through the Trials of the Riders quadrant. Initially through a mix [00:01:00] of cunning and luck, but eventually comes into her own training and progresses, uh, with everyone else.

Eventually, Violet gets to the Threshing, where she saves a rare defenseless dragon and bonds not only with it Andarna, but also with a massive black dragon called Tairneanach which sets her up to become one of the most powerful dragon riders out there. Xaden and Violet grow closer initially because their dragons have bonded, but eventually they fall for each other.

And everything comes crashing down when an unexpected assignment arises, and Xaden and Violet are sent to their deaths, revealing that maybe the enemies we sought were the leaders of Navarre all along. So, overall, what, uh, did you like it? 

I 

guess. 

Ellie: So, overall? Yes, the level of hype that this book had, um, coming into it for me was really hard to not, well actually, the level of hype meant that I almost, I had both high and low expectations of this book, um, but [00:02:00] once I started reading, I could not put it down.

So, I read this book over three sessions, over three days, and I loved it. Did you like it? 

Jen: Yeah, I mean, I had a very similar thing because I've seen it all over, like, Bookstagram and stuff and people saying, it's the best book ever! And okay, I really enjoyed it. It's not the best book ever, but I did really enjoy it.

I read it over, I think, two days when I was sick, and I was like, sure, I'll give it a shot, see how it is. And yeah, it was, it was a really fun read, it was pretty engaging, and I'm glad I read it. 

Ellie: Phew. 

Don't have to start off our first episode, uh, deeply disagreeing about, uh, about a book. I'm sure it will, I'm sure it will happen, but it's nice to start off at least having both enjoyed the book.

Yeah, so I think what made it really enjoyable was was that this book is about a character going into a, like, assassin dragon riding magic school. What is not to love about this kind of combination? Like, it fits into, I guess, this [00:03:00] kind of genre of, like, Yeah, magic education college that I think is, um, always really fun and engaging because it's often an easier way to learn about the world that doesn't feel quite as like either forced down your throat really intently at the beginning or you just have to kind of like figure it out as the book goes on when you're kind of diving in with already established characters.

Jen: So I have a bit of a like love hate relationship with the, with the book. Books that have, like, training montages in them. Because sometimes they're really good, and sometimes they just drag on forever. And I felt like this is done pretty well, that we got a good amount of character progression, and, like, character work that was going on, while also getting the trials and the challenges.

And the trials didn't feel too random. Like the author sitting there going, what would be the worst thing to happen next? Do a thing. And you're like, well, why would a college ever have what? Whereas this is like, 

Ellie: there was reasonings as to why the students were actually doing these different kinds of, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

I also [00:04:00] feel that for a book with so much death and kind of, or like so much expected death, it was very, Light, reading wise, it didn't feel like it was, it was a really fast page turner that still kind of felt like a lot of fun. 

Jen: Yeah, I think a part of that could be because we don't see an actual, a major death until the very end.

Like, we do see a lot of deaths, but there are no, there's no character that we're actually invested in until the final battle when somebody dies. Up before then, it's all just people you either hate or people you don't actually know at all. And you're like, ah. A name on a page is not going to be written anymore as opposed to being like, oh no, 

they died.

Ellie: That's, that's very true. Yeah. 

Jen: One of the things that I did quite like about this is that Violet actually has a personality, which is few and far between for, um, this style of fantasy book. Uh, you know, the, the classic, it's like, she was a woman who had hair and eyes. You are her. I love her. 

Ellie: Yeah. [00:05:00]

Jen: And the thing is, this book done it really interestingly that it both done that and had her have a personality because when we first meet her and she's going to walk the parapet she has no personality she is a blank slate of nothingness and you're kind of like Oh, she's one of those.

But then once she gets past the power pet into, um, the writer's quadrant, then her personality comes out. And it's something that you can explain away saying, Oh, well, she was afraid during the power pet stuff. And like, we get a hint of personality, but not much because she is in her shell and she's doing this.

But like on a writing technique, it's also giving you this projection learner characters so that you can actually, you know, empathize more with her and get that kind of investment but then once she gets into the place where she will grow that's like oh actually she has a personality like she meets Dain and then she like has these conversations and you're like oh wait she she's a human she's not just this cardboard cutout that I was kind of expecting in a YA NA fantasy book.

Ellie: Yeah 

and that's I, the fact that she was [00:06:00] destined for the kind of the scribes quadrant of this kind of like knowledge and learning, I think it balanced really well in that she is written as a smart character, but it's never a case of she knows everything. So that gives her personality in her, like, These are the things that interests her.

And like, she loves like studying history and is really good at like these kinds of exams, but has enough shortcomings in all the other aspects of the school that, yeah, becoming a writer that, yeah, I feel like it kind of balances her as more of a whole character, uh, and helps give her some sort of personality.

As you said, like she has her strengths as well as her weaknesses. 

Jen: Mm. And it's really great seeing the kind of, like, the character progression that she gets as it goes through. There is, like, some real solid character growth that goes on very frequently in these, very frequently in these styles of fantasy books.

It's, you know, you have one character who is exactly themselves and they will meet their love interest and then at the end they will be themselves who has a love interest. Whereas this, you [00:07:00] really do get to see Violet starts off, she's very unsure of herself. She doesn't think she should be here either and has been forced into it and then slowly she moves from being forced into being in the writer's quadrant into realizing that she stands a chance because she is good at what she does and she can learn and she can grow and she doesn't have to live this concept that like She's Like, on one hand, there's the, you know, the pressure from her mom to be a writer, but there's also the pressure from her dad to be a scribe.

And it, I wonder if it's something that comes up later in the series of books of how much is pushed that, you know, she was essentially made to be a scribe and that she was supposed to be down there. But we really see in this first book of how she's, she realizes that, you know what, I can actually do whatever I want.

I want to do, and yes, I might have a few more obstacles, but if I do this, if I work at it, I will get there. And we see that like, Dain is not on board with that. He cannot see that she's growing as a person and he's just like adamant that she's a little kid who can't actually do anything that he can do.

Ellie: Yeah, okay, so there's kind of [00:08:00] two bits. I want to talk about Dain, but I actually, I also, I want to kind of bring, or like, also bring up like, yeah, Violet's kind of disability, which as I said in the intro is kind of agreed to be EDS, which I think I've read enough fantasy books at this point where The main character has a weakness, but it's not well thought out.

And so often have I read a book where they have, like, they're weak or they're whatever, or they have something, and then they go through the thing that makes them now powerful, whether it's becoming Fae or becoming a dragon rider or whatever, the like, the thing that they have to go through, and then they're kind of like magically cured.

And this doesn't happen in this book. And I really appreciate that, that these quote unquote weaknesses of her, um, having these joints that like dislocate, uh, that she has to like strengthen and work around and yeah, compensate for, isn't just kind of like, Oh, and now she's magic. And it's all swept under the rug.

It feels, I guess, because it [00:09:00] is, or at least I'm assuming, it is based off of the very real kind of restrictions and requirements of EDS, I think I read online. That Rebecca Yarros has this. 

Jen: Yeah, 

I think, yeah, I 

saw that as well. 

Ellie: But I haven't really looked up much because I am very new to Fourth Wing World, um, the Empyrean series.

Um, there are a lot of hardcore fans out there, so I don't want to, I don't want to go too far with anything. I am very new to this world, uh, forgive me if I make any mistakes. But yeah, I don't know, I just found this to be one of the better written character disability arcs that I've ever seen personally.

Jen: Yeah, like it's definitely great that, you know, what you'd kind of, what you'd expect in a worst book is that she bonds with Tairn and then magically it's gone. The, or the dragon will take on, you know, her problems and she'll get dragon strength and some, and it's kind of like, it's really great to see that it's like, no, this is, this is the thing that she [00:10:00] lives with.

And it's something that will impact every single day of her life. There are also things that she can do to make it slightly better for herself, to like help herself. And I do kind of like that we see that, you know, there's kinds of training that she can do that does make her stronger. It's not a case that she can never get stronger.

She can never succeed. It's finding different ways to do these things that work for her. I definitely also liked that she didn't magically get like quote unquote cured. Once the magic started, 

Ellie: which I guess then yeah, ties back around to Dain, her childhood friend, who at the beginning you feel so grateful that he's kind of there, or you're like that you're like, Oh, he cares so much.

And then as the book goes on, you're like, Oh, God, he is not letting our character develop at all, or not letting Violet grow into what she could be. at all 

Jen: it doesn't matter like how many times that she proves that she can do these things. And even at the start, his solutions were never actually solutions.

[00:11:00] They're just kind of ways of making her not his problem anymore because her mother would have constantly sent her back. There's no way she could have hidden from the general of the war college in the war college. And it's like, you're just trying to get her out of the writers quadrant. Like it feels like when you think about it, it almost just feels selfish because it's like, well, he didn't want to watch her die right there, but none of his plans would have actually.

Saved her. 

Ellie: Yeah. Also the, the, the kind of extreme rule following. He seems to kind of, yeah, think that he has to live in this world of rules, but could somehow just kind of like place her over in this little corner and she'd be safe again. And then when he comes out and is a full rider, he can like go pick her up and she can be his pretty wife or something.

That's really the vibe. Like, gosh. So I guess. Yeah. Character arc wise, I feel like Dain, is that how we're pronouncing his name by the way? That's what 

Jen: I'm going with. I'm going with Dain Aetos. I didn't listen to the audiobook so. 

Ellie: Me 

neither. 

We're on our own this time. I had a really interesting, or had a really well done [00:12:00] arc for what feels like a really like just fun, fast paced fantasy book.

Jen: Not winning any awards for, you know, most unique, um, characters in, in this book at all to be honest. But still enjoyable. Um, and they, they work really well together, which is the more important point with all that. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Uh, yeah, I think, I think this whole book, if we, if we talk about even like the kind of plotting and such, like when we talk about going for the, the threshing and bonding with the dragons and there's, Oh, there's this golden dragon that like is super rare, it's like, ah.

Well, we've got our female main character right here. Like, 

Jen: yeah, it's like there's a rare golden dragon and there's a rare giant black dragon. Hmm. What is going to happen? 

Ellie: So I definitely, it was one of those cases where I definitely saw some of the plot coming up. I did not see a double dragon pairing thing.

So what, like I, did you? 

Jen: I didn't see double dragon, but the second I saw there's a gold dragon, I'm like, okay, the gold dragon is going to summon the black dragon in [00:13:00] some form. 

Ellie: Did you? 

Jen: Yeah. A hundred percent. 

Ellie: Really? 

Oh, I did not see that. 

Jen: Yeah, I either thought that they'd be friends or it'd be like a baby black dragon, like the gold dragons are baby black dragons and then it called the next, the big one down.

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: Also, I'm sorry, the second I read that there is a book of fairy tales with Venin in it, I'm like, okay, so this is real, Venin are real, they're the actual enemies and they live outside the walls wherever they are. And it's like, oh, the big reveal at the end that you could get from like the first book Three pages.

Great. 

Ellie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, I didn't, uh, like, yeah, I agree. The, the, this fairy tale book. Oh no. But I didn't be, I didn't see her being sent out with them in the, in the way that it was for the final battle. I don't know if we're kind of. Skipping too far ahead down the book to be talking about the final battle already, but 

Jen: yeah, sure.

Why 

not? 

Yeah, no, I didn't see her being sent out so deliberately like that Um, and I definitely did not catch, you know, the quick like Dain read her [00:14:00] mind moment until it was explained back and I was like, Oh shit, I've missed that happening. 

Ellie: That's something that I think was done really well throughout the book.

Cause like him touching her face just became so normal. And then when it was like, Oh, he was reading her mind, like. 

Jen: Yeah. He just like went up so high 

in creep factor. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Yeah. It kind of turned him from being somebody who like, yeah, is a bit of a rule stickler, but like still wanted the best for her, even in his weird way to being like, oh no, he can't see right from wrong.

He can only see progressing through the chain of command. 

Jen: Yeah. Yeah, he can see the, the life that was like, put in front of him and he's just walking this path and that's it. Which is, I mean, I was gonna say it's a great contrast, it's, it's not, it is and it isn't for Xaden because on one hand he has a life that has been put in front of him and he is following it to an extent, but he's also rebelling at the same [00:15:00] time.

Ellie: Yes. I think of the kind of the main characters, Xaden is the one that felt the most, I don't want to say one dimensional because I really enjoyed this book so I don't think I'd use that phrase but like the, the one that was most like, ah yes, this is my male main character who is like, has the, has the charm and the allure and is the bad boy.

Jen: He 

smirks. 

I mean, what more do you need to know? He said the word smirk and you're like, Oh, it's the love interest. And it's going to be a bad guy is not really a bad guy. And he's going to be, yeah, it's, he was very formulaic. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: Yeah. Like he's enjoyable and it is like, like the character interactions are fun, but it's, it's really a case of like, didn't have a lot of depth.

Ellie: Reading the first couple of hundred pages, there just being this kind of like sexual tension or like chemistry tension between Violet and Xaden. I quite enjoyed it. I think it's one of the few quote unquote spicy books [00:16:00] that has just had like tension for as long as it did that I've read in the last little bit.

And at first I wasn't sure if there was even going to be a quote unquote like spiciness level to this book. I think it was, I got about halfway through before there was their Their first, uh, tete a tete moment. So I think I, like, I appreciate the, the spiciness of this book, but I'm also glad it didn't start too soon.

Like, I was there for the adventure, not just the sexual tension. 

Jen: Yeah, like, I feel like there's definitely With romantasy books, it's like, how much romance and how much fantasy are you getting? And I like them to be fantasy books that have a romantic thread through them, as opposed to romance books that, well, there is a dragon in the background.

Yes. Um, so yeah, this is definitely more on the side that I enjoy as well. One of the things that I found a little frustrating, and this is more just from like, How many, how many of this style of book that I've read [00:17:00] is a whole like enemies to lovers thing in that they, they weren't enemies. Like the second Xaden sees Violet, he likes her and like he does admit it later, but you can tell from the writing the second he sees her, he likes her and she's like, she thinks he doesn't like her.

That's, that's not enemies. That's he likes me and I think maybe he doesn't and like every interaction they have, it's him going like, Like, yeah, cool. You're like, you seem like a pretty cool person. And she's like, he's gonna kill me. And he's like, yeah, no, like you go ahead and do your stuff. And it just, it's, it kind of graded a little bit because I know it was kind of like, ah, enemies to lovers.

And it's like, no, this is slight confusion. It was still like, it was fun and everything, but it just, it just annoys me. 

Ellie: Oh, that's, I, so I, yeah. I hadn't actually, like, noticed how non. Enemy ish he was from the start. Um, I guess you're kind of right. I think it kind of [00:18:00] goes from, or at least it felt like to me, it kind of went more from like curiosity on his point.

Or on his part. Or like, morbid curiosity, maybe? To, like, I'm not gonna say infatuation. Yeah, I guess. And, like, when it goes through, like, as it's going through, and Violet bonds with Tarn, or Tyrn, and, like, his dragon is bonded to Violet. to Xaden's dragon. I was then wondering, like, how, I was kind of wondering, is it normal that the riders of the dragons would fall in love?

I was wondering if there'd be more of a discussion of that. Like, is that like an inevitability? Like it was a little bit mentioned, but not, not as much as I was kind of expecting. 

Jen: One of the things I really appreciated though, is coming towards the end. Where they've been like hooking up and he's like, oh, you know, we can't have a relationship, but like we can, we can do things, but like we can't like be together.

Yes. And having Violet be like a mature enough character to be like, no, I like you. I either want [00:19:00] to have a relationship with you or we're not doing anything that's like, that's the line. We are having a relationship. Yes, but we're not doing things. That's it. And it's so refreshing to see a character be like, mature enough and be able to stand up for themselves enough in books to not be like, Oh, well, let's just, let's just see how it goes.

I don't need to put a definition on it. I don't need to do it. And it's like, no, no, that's what you want. 

Ellie: Yeah. Oh, I, I completely agree. I, yes, I really enjoyed, or like appreciated that, that turn. Because you're right, you so rarely see somebody be like, like, it's always like, they might say no at first, but then the, the attraction is too strong and they go ahead anyway.

Whereas, Violet was like, no, no, no, I want to be in a relationship with you. And that's the line. Which I think made his quote unquote betrayal at the end. feel more real, like, or made, made, made their chemistry feel more realistic to me. And not just a, well, I'm going to [00:20:00] always love him even if I say I'm angry right now.

Jen: Mm. Yeah. It also gave a real reason why, like, it, it worked so well with all the other stuff that happened because, you know, he's saying that he doesn't want to be in a relationship because he has these secrets and you kind of, you know, Like, Violet assumes, and you kind of assume to an extent, that it's like, it's not really a secret.

It's, there's something that, you know, he doesn't want to tell her, but it's not going to be a big deal, but it's a this, but it's a that. And then as it, as you, like, get to the end, and you're like, oh, he didn't want to be in a relationship with her, because, like, he's the head of the rebel forces, and they're building a city, and they've this, and they've all these kind of things going on.

It's like, that was a real, Good reason, on his part, for not wanting to get more involved with her. 

Ellie: Yes. Oh, that was definitely quite obvious. That he was going to be the rebel leader. 

Jen: Whaaat? 

Ellie: Like Heheheheh

Jen: xaden! 

Ellie: Could not have been, could not have been, um, yeah, more obvious that that was [00:21:00] coming. 

Jen: There is One other thing that I wanted to talk about, which is the language in the book.

So when I first started reading it, I had assumed it was some bastardized Irish they were using. Um, because the first, uh, like word I came across was aimsir for the general's dragon, which just means weather, which is just kind of cringe, sorry. And later on, um, like a few other words, I was like, okay, that's definitely not Irish.

Um, found out that it is Scots Gaelic and. There's, uh, I kind of hate it when, uh, authors do this stuff of just like taking random words. Like, if they mean something, I don't mind it so much, but if it's just a case of, like, Like, aimsir, or like, shoving a word in there and saying like, Oh yes, well it looks strange and mythical because it comes from a Gaelic language.

It's like, 

no, 

come on. 

Ellie: When, um, [00:22:00] I think of language in this book, my brain doesn't actually go, To that element first, which is a very valid point. It's like, Oh, we need some like interesting names. Let's crack open the like, An Táin or whatever book it is that they all go to, to pick out their names. Because yeah, like I, Aimsir it's anyone that really stuck out to me because I guess it's such a simple word and it doesn't just mean weather that it was one that like.

I immediately translated first, um, all the other kind of dragon names and stuff still had that feeling to it, but none of them were as blatantly obvious as Aimsir. So I was able to kind of move past it. But for me, the language that actually was kind of interesting was the cursing in this book. 

Jen: Oh, 

that didn't stand out to me at all.

Ellie: Okay, so, in a lot of fantasy, or any fiction y books, sometimes they won't want to use, like, real world cursing. So they'll be like, ah, hellas, [00:23:00] toenails, or whatever, you know? Like, they invent some, like, weird phrase that is their version. Of cursing that are like, ah, the goddess divine, like, just be some sort of like phrase that you're like, ah, yes, this is what they're using is cursing, but they don't want to actually put a curse in the book.

And then sometimes when people do use real curse words, it feels kind of forced, or it feels kind of like I'm trying to be edgy. This book, the characters all curse with our curse words. It both felt fine, but it was, there was also a moment where whatever section I was reading and Violet cursed and I was like, Oh, Violet has been cursing this whole book actually.

And it hasn't really stood out to me. Which is a unusual moment for me with a book. Because normally if, if a, if a fantasy book is cursing, either in their own weird language or in mine. I notice it and either like, I'm like, ah, why are they using this weird phrase? I guess I'll just have to note this down as, okay, this is this world's version of shit.

[00:24:00] Or it's like, oh God, like they speak another language yet they use English curse words. What is this? This is, yeah, one of the few times it kind of worked for me. 

Jen: Cool. Okay. So challenges. 

Ellie: So I guess we, we start off straight away. 

Jen: Yeah, straight into the parapet, which I just have to, I have to be honest. I would, I would die straight away.

Like, I feel like I could survive some of the other shit, but the parapet, like, I have a crippling fear of heights. Which I've gotten better with as I've gotten older, but if I was in a very stressful situation and then they're like, Ah, now walk across this thing while someone's running behind you and trying to throw you off.

No, I'm just, I'm dead. I'm dead. That's 

it. 

Ellie: Did they actually ever specify just how narrow the parapet was? Because that's something that I was not able to, like, get right in my head. 

Jen: So they didn't specify, but I've also been on parapets. Um, they're not actually that narrow. 

Ellie: Right. 

Jen: But the thing is, it'd be a point of whether or not there's crenelation on the parapet, which I'm assuming they don't have [00:25:00] crenelations, which means you would be a lot more exposed.

Ellie: Yeah, I think I could, like, if I'm picturing the parapet to be a foot wide. 

Jen: Mm. 

Ellie: I think I could cross the parapet. I don't think I would enjoy it. I think I would get there. Would I give up one of my good sticky shoes for a stranger? Ugh. I, I don't think so. I don't think I'm as good a person as Violet in that, like.

Jen: Yeah, like, I do the chatting beforehand and the, like, let's all be friends stuff, but like, no. 

Ellie: I think I would be too nervous about myself to even actually remember to look at the other person's shoes. Or I just wouldn't want to know, personally. 

Jen: It's like focusing on deep breathing. Like everyone's making these comments around you and just like, go, shut up for a second.

I'm gonna survive this and then we'll be friends. 

Ellie: Yes. And then so when she is crossing the parapet, what actually made me laugh out loud was that Violet starts reciting like some history book. I couldn't tell if having her literally dictate the intro to the [00:26:00] world while crossing the parapet was a nice little joke about like World building in fantasy, or if it was just an extremely on the nose, here's the world, like, I couldn't decide if, what way it was, what way it was intended.

It made me laugh either way. 

Jen: Yeah, I kind of took it as in like the author is like, Oh, I found. the best quick way that I can get this across and doesn't it work haha it's like not really but okay go for it yeah it doesn't not work bad enough that I hate it so let's keep going 

Ellie: every book has to have it we'll get it we're just getting it done 

Jen: okay so then hand to hand combat so when she gets into the Riders quadrant They have to, like, fight all the different people to get there.

Like, I feel like it doesn't explain really well as to why exactly they're fighting, because sometimes they fight and people just lose and someone else wins. And sometimes they fight and the other person dies. And it's like, are they just training? Or is there, like, a ranking that they're creating? Like, they maybe explained this and I just [00:27:00] forgot, but it just felt like, it felt a little bit contrived that it's like, I understand why you're doing this, but also you haven't really given me a good reason why you're doing this.

Ellie: So, I think, like, there is a thing that if it's somebody in your wing, you're not allowed to kill them. And if it's somebody outside of your wing, if you do, quote unquote, accidentally kill them, oh no. And I think because Violet has the big, like, shiny neon light over her head of being like, I am the General's daughter.

If you have any grievances, take them out on me. Is why So many of the attacks towards her were more lethal. 

Jen: Yeah, but I mean, like the concepts behind the staged fights themselves, because there's like a list and her brother's diary is like, you'll be able to find out who you're fighting that day, which makes it feel like a tournament, but with no end.

You like, there's no point to the tournament beyond their tournamenting. 

Ellie: I assumed it was just, yeah, I guess you're right. There wasn't actually a defined end point to this tournamenting. I assumed it would depend, it would impact whether you became a wing leader or [00:28:00] like one of the other lower leaders in each wing.

I've forgotten the terms already, but you know, the other way to add Dain 

was 

Jen: Like squad leader or something. 

Ellie: Exactly. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: Yeah. That's what I was assuming that was working towards, but you're right. I don't think it ever like clearly said, and this will be your last fight now and now you'll be champion of all the little champions.

Jen: But 

would you survive? Think you could do it? 

Ellie: Oh, so right now, me? I'm not entirely sure. I did. I actually don't know how many years it was. Let's go with three or four years, maybe, of Taekwondo, um, as a preteen. I'm gonna blame this book and the books I've been reading recently, but I will just be walking down the street and suddenly get the urge to do a sidekick.

Now, I have refrained from doing any ridiculous Kung Fu antics. in public, but the other day I was standing in my kitchen and I was like, yeah, this is a big enough room. And I like did a couple of the different like sidekick, front kick, [00:29:00] whatever movements to see if I could still swing my leg the way you're supposed to and still hit high enough.

Cause I think like Violet is also quite a short character and I am a short person in life. And so with those kinds of movements, I have to be able to kick above my head. To actually land a blow on a male slash tall person, um, that would have any kind of effect. And so I can still kick well. Now, that wasn't kicking, uh, an actual, like, punch bag or something.

So I have no idea how much force I was putting through. Um, I'm, this is not the level of detail you were expecting, I'm sorry. I'm surprised, but I'm impressed. So. It depends just how much hand to hand training I would, like, that you, like, practicing that you get before these tournaments start. If the squad leader teaches you at least a bit beforehand, I might survive a couple, but like, I'm not entirely sure.

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: Don't know how [00:30:00] far I'd go. 

Jen: Yeah. I'd be something similar. Like I, I done a few years of martial arts when I was like 13, 14, whatever, but also like I'm quite strong. Like I do have a habit of, I done loads of this like house construction DIY a couple of years ago and anytime something wouldn't work and people were trying to like pull up a floorboard that wouldn't move, I just like walk in and drag the thing like out of the floor and be like, yeah, brute force.

It works for everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It works for everything. So, like, I definitely, I feel like I wouldn't be completely screwed, but also I don't have any fighting abilities, really. So if I got some training, maybe I'd do all right, but 

not very well. 

Ellie: Yeah. All we can hope is that we would be Like that we would be paired against other first years who hadn't come in with the hand to hand combat training I think if we if we were lucky with the draw because there was definitely some characters who had like They practiced for this their whole life and then there was definitely something came [00:31:00] across as being like I decided to do this a few Months ago and I have not put the training in.

Jen: Yeah. Yeah If we got like teamed up with, well paired up with like the noobs, then sure. Yeah, I'm, I'm better than zero. Uh, just maybe not somebody who's actually trained that well to do this, but I'm, I'm confident in my ability to learn and to learn that kind of stuff. So I feel like if I had managed to get some form of training, I'd kind of be like, I'd be all right at it.

Ellie: And I think that the whole concept of Violet coming from somebody who is supposed to go into a scribe and now is thrown into this, like, into the deep end of training like this makes it feel more approachable as a, like, when you're, not somebody who has trained their whole lives to become a Dragonrider.

Because if she can kind of, like, make her way through it, then surely I could also train hard enough to make her way through it. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Ellie: The next challenge that they had was the gauntlet. And I'm not gonna lie, I almost giggled like a little girl when I realized that they just had a giant obstacle course to do.

This is, that was like a dream of mine. Yeah. 

Jen: It seemed [00:32:00] really fun to try. Like it feels, it's like, oh yeah, here's this really horrible thing they have to do and it's like, yeah. Is that basically like a free Tough Mudder event? Like, I, that sounds like fun. Like, and there's a rope that you don't have to fall to your death.

You can just grab it and you chill. Like, Oh, okay. 

Ellie: Yeah. I was so pumped reading about the obstacle course. That was a part of the book that actually made me want to go out and train. Like there are a few, there are a few fantasy books that I read and now I'm like, okay, now I like, I want to go and do crunches.

But reading that section was one of those times. And especially actually as. So as the gauntlet training goes on and on, and then Violet makes it to the gauntlet and uses one of these like safety ropes, that you just get a time penalty. Like if you use one of the ropes during your like final run of the gauntlet, it's just a time penalty.

When I read that, I was like, Oh, now I really could do 

it. 

Like, okay, I don't have to plummet to my death, that'll take a 30 second time penalty. Oh no. Great. [00:33:00] I can actually survive. 

Jen: It's definitely something that feels like ripe for rule loopholes to get through. Because it is kind of, if it's just a time penalty, then what if you can figure out a way to use the ropes that will then just like save you that time.

So then you're faster than everyone anyway. That's kind of like. 

Ellie: Yeah. I like, I, I had a moment where I was like, could you just road climb the whole length of the, yeah.

Jen: Like, where does it say you have to do each one of them individually? Like, 

Ellie: but where did the, the, the dishonor of, um, I can scale the wall.

Ah, 

Jen: dishonor,

 death 

before dishonor. 

Ellie: So, yeah, I think we both agree. The gauntlet just sounds like the best. 

Jen: Yeah. It's like, I'd survive it and I'd go back the next day because that just seems like good craic. Okay, so the next is the presentation with the dragons. So this is kind of like the preview before you actually have to go and try and bond with dragons.

Um, and it feels like this kind of, it's a test of your nerve, but it's [00:34:00] also a test of your empathy and bonding with the people around you. Um, Yeah, it feels like it's, like, it's specifically said that, like, the people who are, like, chatting the most, um, they show that it's a strong squad and the dragons tend to like that.

And, like, when I get nervous, I can't shut the fuck up, so I feel like I would do that, like, flying colours. It's like, oh, there's dragons? Let's talk about literally everything that's ever happened in my life. 

Ellie: I don't, like, the couple of characters that got burnt and incinerated were just being really annoying.

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: It basically just kind of seems like, like, okay, it's the first time you're seeing these, like, gigantic monstrosity of a beast that can literally kill you in half a second. So there is going to be a lot of nerves. But it really just seems like a keep your cool moment and we're just going to, like, kill the couple of idiots that made it this far.

Which, which I would hope that I too would also just be like, okay. I'm just going to talk about my love of something [00:35:00] and chat away with my, yeah, with my squadmates about our next history test or, or, or whatever, you know? Yeah. 

Jen: Yeah. I think, like, it does just feel like this test of empathy and your basic abilities to do things.

Cause isn't it, the people who died in that were, Some of the bullies and the super indecisive guy. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: And it's kind of like, yeah, if you just And the indecisive guy only got it at the end. He was being indecisive before that and it was okay. It's just when it started being like a dangerous thing. So yeah, I feel, I feel like we'd, we'd both survive that.

No, no problem. 

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: Yeah. So after presentation, we have dragon riding. I think we kind of have to just assume that we would get dragons in the actual threshing thing because it's like half up to the dragon, but it's like 90 percent up to the dragon. 

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: So yeah, 

Ellie: assuming we just survive, like threshing, yeah, there's no, there's no, uh, skill that we can possess.

That's really going to persuade the dragon, or at least going to win us a dragon. It's all the dragon's choice. So we just assume that we get dragons, I think is a safe bet. 

Jen: So then dragon riding? 

Ellie: [00:36:00] You'd think it'd be, it'd be easy once you get the dragon bit, right? Once you got the dragon, you'd think that would be like, okay, now I'm sorted.

But no. 

Jen: Aw, yeah, like, we spend a year training you up to do this thing and, uh, no, you're dead. It's like, oh, well, okay. 

Ellie: I am surprised that there's no, like, apart from, uh, Violet, um, that there isn't saddles normally, that it was just, you find this one kind of saddle ish spot on the dragon's back and just have absolute thighs of steel and hold on.

And the like, the, the running leap up the dragon's leg to also get onto its back. It's basically, I don't think this ever stops being an incredibly physical, um, activity. 

Jen: Yeah, it feels like something that's like, There's levels of it that I'm kind of like, oh yeah, they view themselves as like this warrior group and they're so hardcore.

But there's a huge part of it that it's like, this is just completely impractical. Like horses, like you [00:37:00] can ride a horse bear back into battle, but you're much better at a saddle and stirrups. It's just for using weapons, like you can fight better if you can secure your legs. It's not, uh, like, Oh, I'm so weak that I need to be strapped to my horse so I can use a lance.

You know, it's, it's, it feels kind of weird that the, that saddles aren't the thing. Um, I feel like you did, like you do pretty good at this with all the horse riding. 

Ellie: Yeah. I would like to think that my previous years of horse riding. would prepare me for this. And like, I was definitely a bit of an adrenaline junkie in the past when it came to horses and ponies, I would go for the ones that had way too much energy and just wanted to like flat out sprint, gallop across the field.

So I would like to think that I, the dragon riding bit I could do, even if it is a thousand feet up in the air and doing tumbles and all this kind of stuff. I'd like to think it would still be fun. 

Jen: Yeah, I'm not, I'm not so sure for myself. [00:38:00] I'm kind of, I wouldn't be absolutely terrible at it. But I would not be confident in my ability to not completely die.

I do think the heights would actually help me due to the terror of like, I'm going to hold on for dear life even if I don't really have to. And I've done some horse riding and then I also do like, very weird thing to say, I've got very strong quads. I've got pretty good quads. I don't know like, yeah, I could probably like, Stay on a dragon for a little bit, then plummet to my death, but I get the little bit to start.

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: Nice. 

Ellie: Okay. Okay. We can probably ride our dragons now that we have them. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Ellie: However, once we start, uh, fully bonding with our dragon, we're now going to get our mysterious Signet power. 

Jen: And also have a dragon speaking in your head like all the time.

Ellie: All the time. 

Jen: Oh, man. 

Ellie: I actually partially feel sorry for the dragon that's going to have to listen to whatever song is stuck on loop in my brain at any given moment.

But anyway, I haven't actually given any thought to what my signet might be, [00:39:00] seeing as it's not really dragon based, but person based. 

Jen: Well, it's like a combination of the two and 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: I think, like, you can kind of guess from the dragons that it is kind of dragon based because Aimsirs' power is the weather.

Uh, Tairneanach apparently is Scots Gael for thunder. 

Ellie: Oh, 

really? 

Jen: Yeah, so I guess basically we need to find out whatever dragons we got and then find out their name, use a dictionary. 

Ellie: Oh. I should have translated more of the dragon's names then. I should have looked more of them up. I just kind of accepted that like these were Gaelic ish names that I was just going to be like okay this is how I'm going to pronounce it in my head.

Xaden's dragon, I don't have a pronunciation for in my head. 

Jen: There's definitely a lot of them I kind of just like popped through and I was like oh those are letters I could try and pronounce but I will not. It's one of the things that like if there is an audio, I know there is an audio book, but listening to an audio book I'm kind of like I don't really, there's ones that I'm pretty sure I know how to pronounce properly like Basgiath.

And I was like, I don't know if I get [00:40:00] the, iath, properly in an audio book. So I'm just not even going to do it. I like, I don't want to listen to how they try and say these words. 

Ellie: Yeah. It's actually like Irish really is a very interesting language in that I am not in any way a fluent or even good Irish speaker, but the way the language is set up, it makes pronunciation pretty obvious.

So that once you know how certain sections are like, or certain like letter groupings sound, you can kind of work your way through any name. Anyway, going off on a tangent here. 

Jen: Sorry, sorry. Yeah. So not exploding before your signet power actually comes to fruition. I'm not sure how much like control you actually would have over.

But like the, the manifesting of the power. 

Ellie: I don't, yeah, I don't think, or at least it came across as not something that you could really train for or be prepared for apart from doing the, the basic shielding and the, the, the standard basic lessons that they were all going through. It felt like just something that you were either going to get or you [00:41:00] weren't.

So I think we're both just gonna have to hope and pray that we are mentally or physically strong enough that our power, once it came through, wouldn't explode out of us or get us killed in some way. 

Jen: Yeah. Sounds good. 

Ellie: Out of the powers that the different characters had in the book, I don't know which one I would want.

The most myself. 

Jen: Yeah, I don't know. Some of them just seemed really kind of like, Ugh, I don't, don't care about that. Like, I, eh. Seems kind of silly. I don't want to control the weather. Whatever. 

Ellie: Yeah, 

same. Like 

Jen: The poor general. She's coming in for a lot of flack today. You've got 

a dumb dragon name and your power sucks.

Ellie: But then there's like, some of them seemed really like, overpowered, I guess. But I guess it's also just luck of the draw, like, who wouldn't want to have Xaden's death shadows? 

Jen: Yeah, like, 

Ellie: Like, you're just, you're just safe. 

Jen: The only problem is you then have to be the male [00:42:00] love interest in a fantasy novel.

Like shadow powers, that means you are a love interest, you know, nothing else about him. It's like, yep, he's a good guy. 

Ellie: Very true, very true. 

Jen: It feels weird though that they actually killed the guy who got the um, telepathy, which Ability. Even if it couldn't be controlled, like, you'd feel, you have this hugely militaristic nation, and they know that this is something that happens.

You'd kind of expect them to be a bit more nefarious about it, like, we've carted this person away. And then you find out later that they're actually shoved in a room for, to do an interrogation. And like, they can read the baddies mind, and they'll try and extract it from the, the rider who's slightly insane.

Like, it feels more realistic to a hugely militaristic nation like that. 

Ellie: Well, I guess when they have Dain, who by touch can read mind, so they can, so they can, like, that's a more controllable version, whereas they can't, unless they, I don't know, train very specifically for it, they can't, like, [00:43:00] Keep out, or who knows, like, with the, with the, with the Mindreaders, they're so, I guess because they're killed instantly, we really don't know just how powerful that is as a Like, can you, can you fight off a mindreader?

Like, who knows, maybe you can't. And so maybe they're so afraid of being found out. For keeping so much from the public, um, which we find out at the end of the book when the Venin are real and then there are wyverns out there. They're, yeah, they're keeping so much from the public that they can't risk a mind reader just reading the general's mind or, or whatever.

Like, The controlled version, where it's Dain, where it's only if he touches you. 

Jen: I wonder if that's something that will come up in future books, that like, you know, outside of the War College, people who get these kind of powers don't actually get killed and they learn to control them in a certain way, so there's a whole new level of power that they can't have access to.

Ellie: Oh, uh, yes. There's like different Ooh. Like the, there's still so much for us to learn about the Venin. 

Jen: Hmm. 

Ellie: Like do they, [00:44:00] like, they just draw the life from the earth, but they create these wet wyverns. There's so, so much for us to learn about that whole magic. Yeah, I think there's definitely going to be a lot to learn in the, in the coming books about, yeah, are there mind readers?

Are they sages or, or, or, um, or whatever they're called. I'm, yeah, I'm really excited. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: It's nice to have entered a fantasy book that both has clear enough magic system, but still a lot of room for expansion that I'm excited to learn about. 

Jen: Yeah. It definitely sets it up as in like, this is the world that the main character knows with these very strict rules.

And we're also showing you that that is just the It's their world. Like there are some rules, but we don't know where the actual limits are, even though there will be limits to things. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: It's always fun when books, like, innovate within these systems instead of, like, in my opinion, I prefer that as opposed to saying, like, oh, and then they just magically have the ability to do the thing that they wanted to do.

It's like, ah, I mean, you have to have some rules, like, [00:45:00] I'm not a stickler for all the rules being very clearly laid out, but there has to be something there. 

Ellie: Yes. And I, I really like that, like, as the book got to the end and it was clear that so much of what Violet had grown up with was a chosen narrative and like a propaganda.

Her, like, we've, it kind of becomes obvious that we've been reading this whole book from her point of view, from her worldview understanding. And like, there's so much in that that could have been misread or misconstrued or this could be, this could, this could all be such a lie. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: I, I quite enjoyed.

Jen: Okay, so with all the challenges in this book, I'm going to say that I would have like a, I'm going to say 65 percent survival rate. I feel like the challenges themselves aren't all too bad, but a lot of them happen at heights, which just automatically makes it bad for me. 

Ellie: I think I feel like I could survive as long as I'm just not unlucky.

I think it's hard to pick, like, part of me is like, oh yeah, like, 75 percent [00:46:00] I would be fine. Then it's also just down to a bad luck moment. I feel like some of the characters who died, it was just bad luck. I think in regards to doing the gauntlet, dragon riding, the things that I can control, I think I would survive.

Would I survive just a random dragon looking at me and I accidentally making eye contact and it like incinerating me? I don't know. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: Like, it feels very 50 50 when I look at it that way. So yes, I think I'll survive. I don't know how well. 

Jen: Cool. Okay. So, um, Fourth Wing is the first book in the Empyrean, which I think is planned to be like five books long.

Yes, I think so. Just from like reading this book. I've got two, like, narrative predictions that I think are going to happen. I don't know if they're going to happen in the second book, which I know is already out, but like, or if further on down, but what I think they are is Violet's sister, Mira is not going to join her and Brennan.

Mira is going to stay with Navarre and the Mum and refused to believe that there's anything going on. And the other one [00:47:00] is that Violet is going to discover electricity for this world. Because she put so much focus on how when she bonded with her dragon, she wanted a useful healing power like being a mender.

And she was so devastated that she got a destruction power. Which to me is just like a very basic, obvious setup that she will find that destruction isn't the only thing she can do. She can actually create things and she can do more and she'll end up discovering their version of electricity. 

Ellie: Not going to lie.

I was not expecting this diversion into her being Isaac Newton. Um, or like, yeah, create electricity. Yeah, I, I can see that. I can see that. I really want to, like, I think Violet is. Like, she has to get another signet power, right? She's got two dragons. Mm, yeah. 

Jen: Well, she has two. 

Ellie: Doesn't she? She has time and she has lightning.

Oh, but at the end, when, I'm pronouncing it Ardanna, but I'm pretty sure that's wrong. So, like, at the end of the book, especially when it's from that last chapter from Xaden's point of view, [00:48:00] he's saying that the, like, she's tripled in size. 

Jen: Oh, yeah. She's like grown up. Her powers have tripled. 

Ellie: Yeah, and her, and her power has, like, disappeared, but we'll wait and tell Violet that when she's, like, not on death's door.

So, I'm assuming she's gonna get some other, either, like, a different variation of, like, time control, or a whole new signet. Yes, that's, that's what I want to know. Yeah, like, I'm excited for it to start from the rebel camp. Yeah. But also, so for, for Brennan to be alive. That means Violet's own dragon, Tairn, knew that Brennan was alive.

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: Because it was with 

Jen: Tairn's previous rider. The former rider that, yeah. Yeah. 

Ellie: And, like, so I feel like there's gonna be whole new levels of, like, trust issues having grown up in a world of secrets and these kind of levels of trust issues, not just between Violet and Xaden, but Violet and Dain and Violet and dragons and, like, everybody.

The whole thing is just this mess of, like, who has ever been told the truth. Uh, yeah, I wonder how that's gonna [00:49:00] go down because you can't un, well, you can, you can die, I guess, but you can't unbond your dragon for keeping your brother's, uh, life a secret from you. Yeah. The family dynamic is going to be interesting for book two.

Jen: Yeah. Awesome. Um, okay. So I guess we might survive fourth wing. Yeah, no, I think. With a bit of luck we'll survive. 

Ellie: While we might not survive the Riders Quadrant as a whole, I think we would survive. Stand just as good a chance of surviving as the other first years. 

Jen: Yeah, 

yeah. Awesome. Okay. Well, thanks for listening.

If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and you can find us on Instagram at ifwesurvivethis and we're also on threads. 

Ellie: Our next episode will be the adventures of Amina El Sarafi by Shannon Chakraborty. See you then. Bye. Bye. [00:50:00] Bye.