The Hobbit

Go on an unexpected journey! 

The Hobbit by J. R. R. Tolkien is the classic fantasy tale of the hobbit Bilbo Baggins embarking on an adventure with Gandalf, Thorin Oakenshield, and his company to rescue their home from the dragon Smaug. 

Jen and Ellie review the world building, plot, language and characters (spoilers and all, though what are spoilers with a classic this old?) before diving into the challenges in this book. Answering the most important question, what is in my pocket? 

Let's see if we survive this!

Transcript

IWST_Episode_4_TheHobbit
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Ellie: [00:00:00] Hi and welcome to If We Survive This, a podcast where we read fantasy books and discuss how likely we'd be to survive the challenges in them. A quick warning that this podcast is filled with spoilers for all aspects of the book. 

Jen: I'm Jen, the slightly more bookish side of the podcast, though I do have some fitness credentials.

Ellie: And I'm Ellie, I could survive 

in the wild for weeks, as long as I have a good audiobook. Today we're discussing The Hobbit by J. R. R. Tolkien. Let's see if we survive this. We follow the hobbit Bilbo Baggins, a cozy homebody with a latent desire for adventure. The wizard Gandalf ropes him into joining Thorin Oakenshield's company of dwarves as they seek to reclaim their home, the Lonely Mountain, from the dragon Smaug.

On the way to the Misty Mountains, they defeat trolls and meet the elves of Rivendale. In the mountains, they take shelter in a cave, only to find it's an entrance to the Goblin Caves, underground, and battle ensues. Although Gandalf manages to rescue the dwarves, Bilbo gets separated [00:01:00] and finds himself in a riddle battle with a creature named Gollum.

After a battle of wits, Bilbo manages to outsmart the creature and make his way out of the caves with a new, prized, magical ring that allows him to become invisible. The goblins try to follow and team up with the wargs to hunt the company, but they are saved by the giant eagles who have a long standing dislike of the goblins.

Eventually, they pass through to Mirkwood, where they are led from the path by visions of elves, and attacked by giant spiders. Bilbo saves them all, only for the company to be taken prisoner by the wood elves, who refuse to release them until they give up their plans. Bilbo manages to escape capture, thanks to his ring, and frees the dwarves to make their way to Laketown.

Here, they're greeted like heroes. Before they make their final trip to the Lonely Mountain and meet the dragon Smaug. Smaug becomes enraged at the thieves in his mist and takes revenge on the people of Laketown, who he has sure sent them. Bard, a Laketown resident, manages to find Smaug's [00:02:00] weak spot and kill him for good.

The Laketown residents seek the help from Thorin under the mountain, but he has been seized by the Dragon Sickness and won't part with his treasure, calling his cousin to bring an army to defend the mountain. The people of Laketown are joined by the Wood Elves and as battle looms, Bilbo steals the Arkenstone, a precious treasure given to them to help bring tensions to an end.

Thorin refuses and a battle is imminent until the goblins and wargs attack once more, leaving the dwarves and men and elves to team up to defeat them, resolving their problems. Thorin is wounded and dies after the battle, and Bilbo returns to the Shire, the long way , in the company of Gandalf, returning a very different and very rich hobbit indeed.

So Jen, what did you think of the Hobbit? 

Jen: This was my first time reading The Hobbit. I think a lot of people might find surprising based on how much fantasy that I've read, but I've never been very into Tolkien. 

Ellie: Have you read any other Tolkien, ? 

Jen: I 

[00:03:00] tried reading Lord of the Rings. And I've attempted to read the fellowship like four times and I have given up.

So I did come into this pretty apprehensive based on that. Now, that being said, I have seen all the movies and I've enjoyed them. I just have a low tolerance for 16 pages of backstory followed by 20 pages of songs. That's it's, it's a personal fault. I accept that. 

Ellie: It's a, it's an unusual, not unusual, but very niche fault to have.

And I think what is, um, unique about this, um, book for us both this time is you both listen to it, right? Do you also listen to this as an audiobook? I listen to it. But I think we listen to different narrations. I listened to the Andy Serkis recording. 

Jen: Yeah. So the audiobook that I listened to was by Rob Inglis.

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: So, yeah, I, I enjoyed the audiobook. Overall, I enjoyed The Hobbit. I thought it was a fun read. I [00:04:00] thought it was a great little children's book. If I had read it when I was six, I would have adored it. I do find I have a problem with it more in the way I've always seen people talk about The Hobbit. Like, it is one of the best books ever written.

And it's like, it's a good . Good children's book. It has a fantastic ability to be both extremely simplistic in the children's book style while also feeling very vast, which you don't get with a lot of kids books. And that is impressive. And it's a great achievement, but it's a great achievement for a children's book.

What did you think of The Hobbit? 

Ellie: So I am, I'm in that tricky position where I consider myself a very big Lord of the Rings Tolkien fan. I am definitely not a very big fan on the scale of very big fans, but I, like, I grew up with the movies coming out. I adored them to bits. I read The Fellowship and The Two Towers [00:05:00] while on long distance hiking trips, which felt so incredibly apt.

Like Tolkien must have been such a big walker because he captures the feeling of being on a long walk very, very well. 

Jen: I don't know. His books never made me feel the need to pee.

Ellie: Okay, point taken. I hadn't considered that. Um, And I think having Andy Serkis narrate the book was a bonus for me. I had read The Hobbit before, but kind of quickly, and I hadn't really stuck. And I hadn't particularly enjoyed it, and then I didn't like The Hobbit movies. So I just kind of written that off as like a, yeah.

And I don't think it helped that just kind of hit a little bit of a slump when we started The Hobbit that like, [00:06:00] when I was listening to it, I was enjoying it. But I didn't have any drive to start listening to it, if that makes sense. Like once I hit play, I was like, Oh, this is nice. And I guess it is a kid's book.

I wouldn't like, I don't know if I would naturally label it as such, but it feels or it felt like a hobbit was, was like, we were sitting in a pub and he was telling me a story. It didn't really feel like a book book. So I guess that is the, the children's book element playing in, where it felt like I was.

being narrated soemthing Like I know I was literally being narrated something, but the writing style of the book and the way like it felt like it wasn't necessarily Bilbo that was telling the story, but like Bilbo's closest friend was telling me this story in a very colloquial, comforting kind of a way. And I will say that listening to the audio book this time, as opposed to reading the songs, 10 times better.

When I was trying to read the songs and sing them and stuff to myself, I just got tired of them. Listening to them being [00:07:00] sung, I was totally fine with it. 

Jen: Yeah, I had tried the Andy Serkis narration of The Fellowship about, I think it was at the start of last year, and he's fantastic. Like his narration is really, really good.

I still couldn't get through it though. 

Ellie: Oh no.

Jen: The weird thing about reading The Hobbit, I've found, is that it's given me a new appreciation for the movies. Because, okay, I still feel like it could have been two movies instead of three. 

Ellie: Oh, yeah. 

Jen: But, I hadn't realized that pretty much none of the story beyond the main plot elements exists in the book.

There's no character development progression in the books. There's no, you know, Wants, or arcs, or motivation, or plan, or it's just, thing happened, thing happened, thing happened. And then you see the movie, and they're like, oh, well he specifically wants, like, Thorin wants the Arkenstone, and he's going here for this reason.

Whereas in the book it's like, [00:08:00] we're gonna go there, and there's a dragon, and maybe something will happen, and we'll figure it out along the way.

Ellie: Yeah.

Jen: It's like, really? Okay. 

Ellie: Yeah, it is very bare bones in comparison to the, the, the main Lord of the Rings books. And I definitely have, yeah, I agree, a little bit more of an appreciation for the movies.

I'm still not in love with them. 

Jen: Yeah, I didn't need like an hour and a half dinner party. Sorry. No.

Ellie: No. And I was, that like, yeah, I guess what you said about there not being like a driving force was really apparent. Especially for me at kind of the ending. Because I guess being written as somewhat of a children's book, it was kind of about like, doing the right thing.

It felt like it didn't have an arc, and then it also didn't have a like, ta da! And now it ends. And like, that's also true for like, the actual Lord of the Rings books, where you think you have finished the story, and you're like, Oh no, I still have like, many hours of reading to go. So [00:09:00] it's not just a, it's all of, it's a, it's a general Tolkien.

Uh, thing. 

Jen: Yeah. I definitely felt like the main message in The Hobbit was learning to take responsibility and learning to be confident, especially to do the right things, um, when people and specifically your friends disagree with you. Like it's very much a message you give to little . kids. And you see at the start of the book that Bilbo is essentially a six year old.

Gandalf is essentially his dad. And that's how they treat each other the entire time, until Gandalf really has to go away this time and Bilbo has to stand up for himself a little bit. And he finds his friends are doing something that he doesn't like, but what's he gonna do? And he makes the right choice.

And he brings the Arkenstone . Out to the other adults and it turns out Gandalf his daddy is there to help him all along and it's all okay 

Ellie: I, I, I do think it might sound like we're being a little harsh on the book. 

Jen: I enjoyed it! It's just a kids book!

Ellie: But I, I [00:10:00] really, I really enjoyed it. It was like, it was so cozy, so, so cozy, but it is also, yeah, very simple.

And I think I enjoyed it as much as I did because of all the context I have from actual The Lord of the Rings. Although, the singing elves didn't really fit in with my internal interpretation of elves. 

Jen: Oh, so much singing. Yeah. Though I genuinely had to stop when their song included the line, the f s are reeking.

Yeah. Some old word choices are questionable. 

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

I did hear that one and I was like, do I rewind? Do I want to know? No, I don't think I want to know. Let's just keep going. Like, I think the dwarf singing is the one, is the one singing element I would keep. Like, their songs, like, I don't know, it felt more in keeping with this company.

But, like, the elves tra la la lying, if they la'd one more time, I was gonna

Jen: Oh my 

god, so many tra that are actual tra [00:11:00] la la la's, la la la la la lays, and it's like, really? Come, come on, if you're going to write a song, at least write a song. 

Ellie: It just didn't feel quite 

like mystical enough for them, or ancient enough, yeah, for them to be just kind of prancing about.

But anyway. 

Jen: Yeah, I did, um, I found the Dwarves songs a bit more fitting with the narrative. Like, they were kind of there, whereas the Elves songs, I definitely felt like, can we get to the end of this, please? 

Ellie: Yes. I think it does deserve its status as a classic, but I guess I didn't, or like, I kind of, I forget that it's like a classic children's book.

It's kind of billed as a classic of, yeah, I think you basically already said this, of like fine literature. And it is great and it was so cozy and I enjoyed it, but it, yeah, it needs a bit more like, it's definitely a classic and it definitely inspired a lot of things, but it doesn't mean it is perfect. 

Jen: [00:12:00] Yeah. It's something that I find with a bunch of classics, like sometimes something is a classic because it was the first time to do something. Sometimes it's a classic just because it was very popular at the time it was published and therefore it has survived. And some things are classics because they are genuinely well written and fantastic and they have all this stuff and I 100 percent agree that this is a classic children's book But I would put in the qualification that it's a children's book because just all the things that you All the things you would expect from like a novel with no qualifications This doesn't really have, like, it's readable, it's entertaining, sure, but there's no plot progression.

Like, a lot of the plot is just things that happen. They're not really tied together in a lot of ways. Every conflict that appears, they don't overcome it, a new character just gets added who fixes their problem for them. And there's no internal, like, like character arc. There's, yeah, it's [00:13:00] just, it's a, it's a kid's book.

I'm sorry. I know I've said this so many times, but that's, that's the thing. It is just a kid's book and it is a very good kid's book, but it is a. kids book 

Ellie: Yes. 

And every time when all 13 Dwarves had to be named, Bifur and Bomber and Balin and Dwalin and I couldn't, I just couldn't. Tilly and Filly and I was like, do they really have to actually be 13 of you?

Like, realistically? Owen and Glowin. Sorry, this is all coming back to me. Yes. 

Jen: One of the things I did wanna bring up to, to move off just, um, me constantly saying, but it's a kid's book. 

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: Something I did wanna bring up is a thing that I've heard frequently in a criticism of Tolkien's work is, um, things like, you know, all the characters are white.

Everyone who has like darker skin is represented as, you know, the, um, the orcs or the Uruk-hai , and it's all very not good. And one of the things that I [00:14:00] really noticed when listening to this is when they talk about the Trolls. And everybody in this book gets a fancy fantasy name that has very highfalutin speech, and the Trolls are called Tom, Bert, and William, and they speak like working class British people.

Ellie: Ooh. 

Jen: Which I just thought was an interesting choice in a book. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

I think Hmm. Yeah. I had not put together the names and the accent until you just said it now, so my mind is a bit, not quite reeling, but you know, gathering. Are all the characters really white? I also hadn't copped that. I guess that's just a privilege point from, from my side.

But what is the name of the man who transforms into a bear again? Bjorn.

Jen: Sounds about right.

Ellie: Yes. Interesting. So in, in googling Bjorn, because I hadn't [00:15:00] really imagined him as White, because I guess he transforms into a big brown bear, but all the, like, visual imagery of him is a hairy white dude. So that doesn't quite, uh, back me up in any way at all.

And, and zero female characters? 

Jen: Yeah, zero female characters, I think. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: Yeah. Like, I'm pretty sure in Lord of the Rings main book, there's like two female characters. I know there is in the movies. So he's not good at the women representation. And I know lots of people will come back with their, well, this is a world war.

And it's like, no, The Hobbit was written before the wars, so you cannot use that excuse on this one. He just didn't write women. Oh, actually, I think. I can't remember if it details in The Hobbit, but I think one or two of Bilbo's relatives who steal things from his house are women. 

Ellie: Oh yeah, the Sackville Bagginses.

[00:16:00] Yes. Yes. I think you're right there. So they do exist.

Jen: So the only women 

exist are there to steal your home goods. 

Ellie: Uh, yeah, well, you know, in this Middle Earthian style, the only place I would have actually expected to see women in this story would have been in the Elves or in, I was going to call it Low Town, but no, it's Lake Town.

Jen: I feel like I want to, like, I'm trying to think of things to talk about and I'm like, oh, was, These, this character's action in character, and it's like, well, it feels like most of the characters didn't have much character, so it's hard to say whether or not there were realistic actions. They're all just mouthpieces for the items in the story to happen.

And I feel like it really makes it difficult to discuss this book. 

Ellie: In a, yeah, in a, yeah. Um, plot progression style, [00:17:00] or any of our typical discussion y points. But the challenges throughout the book, I feel like were laid out very clearly. It's like, okay, here is challenge number one, and here is challenge number two.

Like I feel like those are very obvious stages that the book went through. So. 

Jen: Yeah, we definitely don't have to look for challenges in this one. It's like, oh, we've given up the story and in fact, we will just have challenges. And yeah, it's definitely, it has worked for us. 

Ellie: Yes. Um, and, I guess in preparation for this, um, you put together the, the master doc, and I had personally written down a couple of challenges to include.

And one that you included that I hadn't fully thought through was the very first challenge is actually to host a giant dinner party. Which is a very real world challenge for us to start with. No dragons, no nothing, just host a really big dinner party. Unexpected, uninvited. [00:18:00] 

Jen: Yeah. What would you do if 14 people showed up at your door and you had to have dinner for all of them?

Ellie: It would be a lot of pasta. 

Jen: Who likes cereal? 

Ellie: It wouldn't be nearly as, I do enjoy the descriptiveness of the food. I know that's a very particular taste and niche in fantasy books. If you like being told about the five courses or whatever, I do kind of enjoy it. But I, yeah, like as much as I identify. Um, with or as a hobbit in both stature and just love of food and being cozy and I would not have a multi course meal in my back pocket.

Jen: Yeah, I could definitely whip up like enough main courses. Actually I'd be sorted on the main courses because I meal prep. So my freezer is always filled with multiple dinners. So as long as people don't mind eating extremely badly cooked, safely, but [00:19:00] not very tastily cooked meals, I'd be fine on that. I couldn't do a five course one though.

Like, is tea a course? Can I just give them three courses of tea? 

Ellie: Yeah, I guess it depends. Like I make some killer ramen. With instant noodles. Is that highbrow enough? I don't know. It does look and taste amazing. Does it hit 14 people gathering levels of food? Unsure. And also we're, we are working millennials, we don't have time for

Like I, I aspire to your levels of, um, meal prepping. I have in the past been like somewhat on top of that currently. 

Jen: Slow cookers, they do the work 

for you. As long as you're not picky about your food, it's really easy. 

Ellie: Oh, I know, I know. Like, I even, like, I have some, like, Pyrex and, like, Dutch ovens and stuff.

I can, I can slow cook for days if I am just [00:20:00] organized enough. Actually I've just realized one of my big challenges in hosting a 14 person dinner party is I do not have 14 plates.

Jen: Oh, yeah. 

Ellie: Or 14 forks. Or 14. Oh, I probably do. Okay. So I probably do. I do not have a matching set. Of 14 of everything. It would be, half of the people would have big plates, half of the people would have bowl y plates, half would have regular nice cutlery, half of it would have the like, incredibly fancy cutlery I've inherited.

That sits in a box. So, that might actually be the turning point. I don't have four, I don't own 14 chairs either. 

Jen: Yeah, I don't have 14 chairs. I don't, even if, like I just counted there, all of my plates and bowls put together does not equal 14. People would have to like eat out of pots. Very student chic.

So I feel like I have the advantage here because I could just like get a takeaway down the road for 14 people. I feel [00:21:00] like you might have a bit more difficulty doing that. 

Ellie: Living in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, that, um, that would be slightly more difficult. I don't actually know if anywhere would deliver to my house.

I've never even bothered to try. The benefit of that is that while I don't meal prep, I do have a very big food cupboard. So I would have the raw ingredients to facilitate some extravagance. It would just depend on the speed of assembly. 

Jen: Okay, so I think we can both say we would probably pass the dinner party, especially if they do the party side of it and you just have to occasionally throw food in their general direction.

Ellie: Yeah, like if we're, like, I feel like we'd pass, but with low marks because nothing would be matching and yeah, we, we don't know how well the food will be, but we could, we could, we could on a technicality probably feed.

Jen: Yes, only on technicality, [00:22:00] they would not invite us on the adventure, we'd be so disgusted.

Ellie: Maybe that's where, maybe that's where Bilbo went wrong. 

Jen: Be like a worse host and they would have been like, no, we don't want this burglar. Nice. 

Ellie: Our challenge number two is to pickpocket the trolls. 

Jen: So this is one that Bilbo actually fails at. 

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: So he tries to pickpocket, he gets caught and he essentially ends up with everybody getting caught and they all would have died if it weren't for Gandalf.

I don't feel like I would have felt the need that Bilbo had to prove himself and pickpocket in the first place because that was a silly idea. 

Ellie: Yeah, didn't he originally just went to see what was up there to kind of scout the thing. And he did the scouting really well. Like, he got there, he saw it was trolled, he knew it was happening.

Turning around and going back would have been enough of a Look, see, I can do my job without the necessity of being like, I'm also not going to steal this troll's purse just for the extra kudos or the proving [00:23:00] myself worthiness. 

Jen: I can't say whether or not, if I decided to pickpocket a troll, if I could do, I've never tried to pickpocket anything.

Ellie: Same. I have that, I would say on one hand I am a very clumsy person, but on the other hand I've also learned the skills of how to carry 21 wine glasses in one hand as like a kind of towering chandelier thing. So I have gained dexterity. And balancing and I gained, I gained a surprising number of skills from that kind of industry.

Like I can carry five plates at once, which actually would have been good for the dinner party. But anyway, on to the next one. Um, but I am also very clumsy. So I, like, I don't know if having become more dexterous and like, for some reason, I feel like those skills would help me in this pickpocketing, but knowing my luck, I would then like.

Trip as I walked away or something. 

Jen: Yeah, hard to say [00:24:00] how we do on the challenge. 

Ellie: Thankfully though, this is a challenge that we can fail, seeing as Gandalf is there at hand to just save the day. 

Jen: Yeah, like Bilbo fails it, we can fail it too. 

Ellie: And all of the dwarves fail it as well, so. 

Jen: Yeah, they all just like come running in and get caught.

Ellie: And you'd think after the like, seventh dwarf ran in and got caught, they would change the tactic, but no. 

Jen: The next thing we get to that is an actual challenge for Bilbo, I think is the riddles with Gollum. Because everything else kind of just like, the cave, the dwarves find the cave, they get set up there.

It's all kind of accidents in the goblins, um fight. And then he ends up near Gollum. So I think that's like the next real challenge. I feel like how good we would do there kind of depends on the parameters of our challenge. 

Ellie: So I would like to say that I think the riddles is a hundred percent your domain. I know you're not [00:25:00] necessarily like a riddles person, but you are a words and a play on words person to the highest degree.

If I need a pun, if I need a rhyming, like, play on a song that I'm reinterpreting for something, I will spend a day working on it and I will get like a usable result and then I'll message Jen and within 20 minutes, you'll have sent me back not one but 10 options for me to choose from. 

Jen: Talk about niche skill sets.

Ellie: So niche, but so strong. So if we're doing this as a team, I am zipping my mouth shut. Because also the case with the riddles with Gollum is it's a speed thing. It's not just that you have to like figure out a riddle. It's kind of, Gollum clearly wants to eat him or, or, or, or, or maim him in some way. So it's both answering Gollum's riddles quickly, coming up with your own riddle quickly to keep Gollum [00:26:00] distracted.

I, I would not, my mind would go blank. Like, I love, I love reading. I love words. I love it all. I would not have the speed for this challenge. 

Jen: I wonder how much of this is based on riddles you already know. Mm. Because for Bilbo, he was like, Oh, that's an old one. Obviously it's such and such. Oh, I've heard that one before.

So I think if Gollum came up with, you know, our equivalent to that, you know, the Sphinx's riddle. Yes. I think everyone could be like, Oh yeah, obviously. Or what gets, uh, wetter the more that it dries. All that kind of stuff. It's like, Oh, we all know these ones. 

Ellie: Yeah, 

Jen: yeah. Yeah. I'd say we, we do the riddles with Gollum, I think.

Yeah. Two of us together. Yeah. Yeah. 

Ellie: We, we, with an asterisk, meaning you Yes. . However, on escaping the goblins and Gollum and all of that terror, Bilbo and the dwarves are then off into Mirkwood. 

Jen: Yes. The most, which contains 

the first true horror [00:27:00] of this book. 

Ellie: Yes. 

Giant spiders, 

Jen: giant spiders, .

Ellie: And while I may have praised you for your words and riddle, prowess, Jen.

Jen: Mm-Hmm. 

Ellie: I know

Jen: Yeah. I'm the kind of person who will, like, you know, I, I see a spider in my house. I, uh, I might just burn it to the ground one time. Relatively recently, I had a spider crawl into my bed before I got into it and I slept on the couch because I am an adult and I could make that choice. And there was no one here to kill the spider for me.

So I would not fare good with fighting giant spiders. 

Ellie: Yeah, when you told me about that particular spider incident, I was impressed by your dedication to avoiding the spider. It's like, that's just the spider's room now. Thank you. It's the, it's the spider's bed. He needs it, clearly. 

Jen: Yeah, no, it's the spider's house.

I had to wait for him to move out before I could go back in. 

Ellie: I would [00:28:00] say my Spider, bug, insect tolerance is, is higher than that. Um, the joys of living in the middle of a bog in the middle of nowhere means that I have no choice but to embrace all the other inhabitants of this, uh, this area. And the fact that up until two years ago, the house that I live in was a shell that Carl and I have converted into a livable house means that we had to, uh, evict a lot of Squatters.

Non paying tenants, um, of the spidery variety. Whether or not I could fight giant spiders now, we're, we're moving into a questionable realm. I did really enjoy the line after Bilbo basically wakes up from having killed the giant spider. There's a line that goes along the lines of, The spider lay dead beside him, and his sword blade was stained black.

Somehow, the killing of the giant spider, all alone, by himself, in the dark, without the help of the wizard, or the dwarves, or anyone else, made a great difference to Mr. Bilbo Baggins. [00:29:00] Whatever way I heard that line as I was listening to it, it was like, it really gave me the feeling of like, you wake up and you're like, Ah, I did the thing.

Jen: Mmm, 

Ellie: you survived the horrible thing, and it's not necessarily that you feel proud that you survived it, but you're like, ah, I survived it, and I am too tired, and too battle worn. to really have any fear anymore. 

Jen: Yeah, you're not even excited that you've done a thing. You're like, well, this is the world now and I'm a person who does that.

Ellie: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So yeah, like having, at that point, having the One Ring, being able to turn invisible, is going to be of great benefit. I would definitely emboldened. Wearing a ring that makes me invisible. 

Jen: Yeah, that would definitely even the odds. 

Ellie: And I had actually forgotten that this is where Or it's from this that Bilbo names his sword Sting.

That he then passes on to Frodo and like I have read the Hobbit before, but it was a very long time ago and that moment just never clicked in my head. So that was one of the few [00:30:00] kind of lore ish moments reading the book that I was like, oh, oh, there's that thing that I know . 

Jen: So like I knew the, the name of the sword from the movies and it was nice to see there's an actual like real origin for it.

Ellie: Mm-Hmm. 

Jen: . And it always had stood out as just a normal. name instead of some like elvish whatnot that means the, you know, breaker of chains or whatever. And it's like, it's called Sting. And it's like, oh no, there's a reason it's called Sting. And it's like, oh, cool. Cool. 

Ellie: Okay. So Fighting the Spiders, we're now on a slightly more, oh, actually, do you have any sword skill experience?

Jen: Uh, not really. I have once or twice played with swords, but I wouldn't, haven't taken any lessons or anything. 

Ellie: Okay. The fact that you paused, I was like, Oh my God, Jen actually has sword experience and I don't know about this. 

Jen: I was thinking at one point I was at this con and I was, um, you Just selling games and stuff and when we're all doing [00:31:00] setup, a guy was setting up beside me who had swords and he was doing demos for people and I started chatting to him and we started playing with the swords and he's like, What have I done this?

What would you do? And I was like, Oh, shit, I would do this. Wait, no, that does. And I was like, problem solving sword fighting, but that's like, Ish. That's all my experience. 

Ellie: Admittedly, it is more experience than I've had. I've never done fencing. I've never held a real sword, or sword shaped item that you could find at a con.

Like, swords, pretend swords. Uh, I had wooden swords as a kid, I guess. 

Jen: But I mean, I'm the total nerd that has like a katana and my brother has a claymore so we're definitely sword people no 

teenagers 

Ellie: oh it was a dream like when i was Uh, a teenager, the, the tattoos I wanted was a dragon and Aragorn's sword, like the broken blade.

Like, that [00:32:00] was, yeah. So like, there's no judgment coming from me. 

Jen: I mean, when I was a teenager, I wanted a Final Fantasy VIII tattoo. So I'm just glad I wasn't allowed to get tattoos when I was a teenager.

Ellie: Yeah. So I have no swords, no swords experience. So, the, the invisibility would be doing a lot of heavy lifting. But Bilbo also had no sword experience, not really, at that point, so we're, we're again on the kind of 50 50 scale, like we could scrape it past maybe if you close your eyes to the spiders and 

Jen: Yeah.

And the spiders are very distracted as well. So I think chances, maybe, that you could kill them and I'd have a panic attack sitting beside you. Totally. 

Ellie: I guess our next challenge is to sneak into the woodland realm. 

Jen: I feel like it's very doable with the ring. 

Ellie: Mm hmm. 

Jen: I don't know if I would necessarily do it the [00:33:00] way Bilbo did, cause he just kind of ran in with them.

I probably would try scouting the place for a while first before going inside, but if I could turn invisible, I'd, I'd gain the confidence that even if I was slightly loud and or like bumped into something that I'd be able to hide from the elves well enough that I could do it. 

Ellie: And, yeah, it's a funny one, because I feel like Bobo runs in, like, straight away with them, and then spends a very long time prowling the castle, invisible, eating food.

Jen: I mean, to be fair, that's kind of what we all want to do. 

Ellie: Yeah, go through life with no responsibility, just eat food in a nice castle. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: When you rephrase it that way, it does actually sound amazing. 

Jen: Being invisible at will with the group of people who kept turning up to your house and making you do things are all captured and you just get to eat food and hang out like 100%.

But once in the woodland realm [00:34:00] or the castle within the woodland realm, we have to rescue the prisoners. 

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: Which is a much bigger task than just being invisible and eating food. Unfortunately. 

Ellie: And I feel like the, the plan that Bilbo came up with, with the barrels was fantastic compared to the grumblings of the, the dwarves.

Jen: Ingenious. 

Ellie: 10 out of 10 plan. As a challenge, I didn't expect to be able to come to barrel riding saying I have experience. However, I have done a rubber ring river race. 

Jen: Okay. 

Ellie: Where it's basically like a giant donut. It's the, I think they often use, um, the inner tubing of like a tire tractor or a tractor tire, a tractor tire.

Um, so if you imagine a donut shaped rubber tube, the size of a large tractor wheel, it was a team of four. We all had to stay. Somewhat attached to this rubber [00:35:00] ring, like holding on to it in some way and swim slash race down a river, you know, rural Ireland comes up with some interesting, 

Jen: the things you did pre internet, 

Ellie: the things you did pre, pre internet.

So the way we divided it was that two of us would be on the quote unquote front of the ring Two would be on the back, and the two in the, so I was one of the ones in the front, and we'd have to wrap our legs around the ring as much as we could, and use our arms to, like, swim. And then the people on the back would wrap their arms around the ring, and then use their legs to push us forward.

So, basically what I'm getting to is, once you have a good hold, you're pretty set for quite a while. However, If you either can't get a good hold, or you get hit hard enough with a stick, it is very difficult to reassess or like re establish your, re establish your, your connection. 

Jen: That is an [00:36:00] expertise that I was not expecting.

Thank you. 

Ellie: I, you know, things I'll do for this podcast, the thing 16 year old me did, apparently. 

Jen: All your life training just for this. 

Ellie: Yeah, just for this moment. So, yes, while very precarious, and while Bilbo was the only one who actually had to, like, ride a barrel, the other ones were just kind of stuffed into them, I think this was a very workable tactic.

I think actually barrel riding was kind of, was the better way to go. I am surprised that the dwarves stayed in the barrels the whole time, that it wasn't a case of they were going to be able to get out of the barrels themselves, um, because the fear of flooding was, was there. was high for me. Um, but yeah, it was risky not knowing what the river ahead was going to be like.

Jen: Hmm. 

Ellie: But. Yeah. 

Jen: Okay, I'm going to take your word that this is doable. I don't, I personally don't have any [00:37:00] experience in barrel riding or tractor tire riding. But um, if you say it's possible, it's probably possible. The next one we have is at the Lonely Mountain when Bilbo is doing riddle speak with Smaug.

So a big point is that. You don't answer a dragon's questions directly and there's a lot of, like, double speak, talking around, flattery, without giving real information. Yeah, I feel like I'd probably be okay at this. 

Ellie: Again, in my head, this was a purely Jen skill. When you phrase it like that, I feel a little bit more equipped.

In the whole flattery, talking around subjects, again, from waitressing, of just having to be very nice and talk to people about their holidays. There's no riddling in that. That's just keeping topics on safe areas and, [00:38:00] and including the level of flashery that's necessary. The riddling, we're, we're, we're back with you, Jen.

This is, I'm sorry. I wish I could help, but. 

Jen: You know, if you just start every sentence with, Riddle me this and then say something and it's, it's a cheat code I hear. 

Ellie: But if I say riddle me this, where is the cheese? Am I going to get an answer to ask you where the cheese is? Because I might want cheese. Or is Carl only going to be trying to figure out what sort of a riddle is, where is the cheese?

Jen: You know what? There's only one way to find out. Next time you want cheese. 

Ellie: I don't know why I picked that sentence, being lactose intolerant and not eating any dairy. 

Jen: Yeah, it was, I was like, does the vegan want cheese? I don't know. Does she?

So, okay, I think in that very specific context, I think the answer would be, why do you want cheese? But Smaug wouldn't know that. So if you said, riddle me this, where is the cheese? [00:39:00] You could just confuse him away from the horde to be like, what is this hobbit saying? And then just go. You could save lives doing that.

He wouldn't even attack Laketown. He'd be like, no Laketowner would send this person.

Ellie: I I will say that this being basically the like, end, like the showdown with Smaug is not the showdown you expect, or I expect, from classic fantasy. Like, I know Bard is the one who has the actual final moment, but this is the real, I guess moment where Smaug is a character talking and and 

Jen: It does feel like there's very little for Smaug to do in the book.

He's there, they talk, he breeds fire in their direction and bashes into the mountain and then goes off and gets killed by a character who I'm pretty sure doesn't get mentioned until he's there to kill him. And it's kind of like It felt like, even in a kid's book context, it felt like there was more that Smaug could have done or that Bilbo could have been [00:40:00] involved with for the defeating of Smaug.

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: Instead of a random suddenly named character and a robin. Is it a robin? A sparrow? 

Ellie: Thrush. 

Jen: Yes. Yeah. So, yeah. 

Ellie: So, I saw a jokey, real TikTok thing the other day that was like, are you the kind of reader? That Annotates and dissects everything. Or are you the kind of reader who is just there for the ride?

And after you close the book, you forget everything, but you had the best time. And I was like, Oh no, I might be in category two. And I've just started doing a podcast on books. So I actually bought little tabs for the physical books that I'm now reading for this project so that I have more, more sensible things to say, or to draw on..

Jen: I mean, [00:41:00] 

I definitely don't try and figure books out as I'm reading them.

I don't analyze them as I read them. I don't make annotations. I've only recently, with the current book I'm reading, I'm highlighting some words because I know I want to talk about language in it, and I'm reading it on my Kindle. Otherwise it would not get anything. I'm very much a, I'll read a book, have the craic, and then afterwards try and dissect it as much as possible.

Ellie: Actually, in our talking about this, I remembered Something to do with Smaug and the Lonely Mountain and challenges. In me saying that I didn't take notes. For the first time ever, I used that feature on Audible where it's like, Clip this section. Don't know if I used it right, but at least it made me remember.

The context in that, When Bilbo is sent down the tunnel to find Smaug and the treasure and whatever, He gets so far, and then he sees a glimmering up ahead, And he like, [00:42:00] Kind of like sits down and has a little like talk to himself being like you're just gonna have to get up and do this, you can do this, it's gonna be fine.

And the book says something along the lines of like this was the, the biggest challenge that Bilbo had ever faced. It wasn't actually doing anything, it was making yourself do the thing. 

Jen: Mm. 

Ellie: And that felt so real. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: Before you go off and you do some big challenge or run a race or anything, the like self doubt.

and the negative talk and just the fear that like sets in to be able to step over that. And I guess the way it was written in, in The Hobbit was a way that children could also understand that experience. But for me, I was like, ah, yes, this, this here really is one of the big challenges. 

Jen: Oh, definitely.

That's one of the, it's just one of life's challenges. Like the moment before it's always scarier than what you actually have to do. The half hour you spend. Waiting at the start line is always [00:43:00] scarier than the actual race or like the couple of minutes before you go into the meeting Are the worst couple of minutes ever and then you go in and it's like even if you're scared It's still it's fine because you're getting through it and it's going to be over soon.

But yeah, no, that's that's very good insight Good old bilbo. 

Ellie: Yeah 

And I managed to bring our Wandering Tangent back to the book, somehow. 

Jen: Where is the cheese? So I do feel like the last big challenge that Bilbo has, it's more of like a personal challenge because Smaug would be the last kind of like, external challenge.

But the last internal challenge that Bilbo has is When he decides to take the Arkenstone and bring it to the Elves to stop the war, and this is him going against what his, um, people who have become his friends are all saying you're to do, um, going against Thorin, who Bilbo has grown [00:44:00] close to once, but doing what's right to disagree with them.

And That's something that, I mean, that's something that a lot of adults don't do. It's, you know, saying that you're not sticking with your friends or the crowd just because they are doing something. Will you do what's right, even if it means that your friends won't like you anymore? And a lot of people Won't.

Ellie: Oh. Like, that is such a difficult step to take. Yeah. Like, even thinking about it, like, I want to say, yeah, I would do the right thing. But it's never just as simple as being like, okay, and now I go and do the right thing. It really is. Cause if, like, you know that you are not betraying, but also you are kind of betraying.

Jen: Mm. 

Ellie: These people that you love and want to be loved by in return. 

Jen: I think a big part that it doesn't get explored in the book, but in reality in this kind of situation is that people who are your friends wouldn't put you in that position in the first place. 

Ellie: Mm hmm. 

Jen: And if they can't [00:45:00] grow and see why you did something that is, like in this case, objectively right.

It's not, you know, it's not a big moral quandary. It's a, how do I stop multiple armies from all trying to kill each other, you know? Like if you, if your friends after the fact can't see that what was done was in their best interest, then were they really your friends? Do you really want them as friends?

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: If, yeah, if you disagree on something as fundamentally as like, what is this right course of action? 

Ellie: And, and 

technically Thorin was. It's under, what was it called, like, dragon sickness? Is that the phrase they used? 

Jen: Yeah. So Thorin in his right mind might have actually been okay with giving away certain amounts of the treasure.

Ellie: Yeah. Because 

he has regained his, his kingdom and his home. 

Jen: So to be less deep, uh, is this more a case of having an argument with your friend when your friends are all really drunk and you're sober and they want to do something [00:46:00] really stupid and you're trying to convince them that they shouldn't go for a swim, like in December in a fountain they just found.

Ellie: That is a whole new take on, on this moment. In that case, it is a lot easier to be like, Yes, I will be the person dragging my friend out of the fountain. Because no, we are not going swimming in the fountain in December. I will go swimming in a lake with you in December. When you're, when you're sober and it's daytime.

Even night time. But like. 

Jen: Okay, so it's all about the size of the body of water for you. That's an interesting take.

Ellie: No, no, no, 

no. It's about the sobriety and the equipment. Because in my head, if I have a bunch of drunk friends who are trying to jump in a fountain, they are not equipped to be getting into the fountain or to be getting out of the fountain.

I will go, I, okay, I will swim in a fountain, if you want. But like, if it's December, I'm I'm going to want a towel when I get out or I'm going to at least want other sober friends so that when we get out, we can take care of ourselves [00:47:00] and I'm not going to have to like be swimming in a fountain that someone then pukes in.

Jen: I mean, one time in college, neither me nor my friends swam in a fountain, but I was walking home from town and a guy soaking wet walks up to me and he's like, I don't know you, but I know you live near me. Can I follow you back to find out where I live? I'm like, what? He's like, the guards just pulled me out of a fountain.

I was like, um, okay, random stranger, I guess I'm either walking you home or I'm getting followed home. 

Ellie: And you say, and you said that I was the one learning specific skills that would then come into this podcast. Who knew that that, that experience was going to, uh, be so 

useful?

Jen: You know, I blame, uh, going to college in the countryside.

If I'd stayed in the city, it would never have happened. We don't have a lot of fountains in Dublin. 

Ellie: No, we really don't. 

Jen: They would have 

just fallen in the Liffey and then that's no one's problem.

Ellie: Or the canal. People [00:48:00] jump in the canal. 

Jen: That's true, that's true. So yeah, I think that is, that's all the major challenges.

I think we would survive The Hobbit. 

Ellie: I think so too. I think we might even do well in some of the, in some of the elements. And the other ones we'd just kind of blunder through the same way that the characters do, so. 

Jen: Yeah, for a good half of these we have Gandalf to come save us if anything goes wrong.

Ellie: It's only actually right now that I'm like, wait, we never got to see Radagast. He's mentioned, as when Gandalf is talking to Bjorn, didn't make an appearance. Never mind. That's a story for another, that's a question for another day.

Jen: All the things they added to the movie. 

Ellie: Yeah. Whoa.

Jen: Okay then, I think we can skip the predictions for the next book because We might have an idea of what happens in the sequel, but thanks for listening.

If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and you can find us on Instagram at ifwesurvivethis. We are also [00:49:00] on threads. Let us know of any books you'd like us to review. 

Ellie: And our next 

episode will be Assassin's Apprentice by Robin Hobb. 

Jen: Bye! 

Ellie: Bye!