Iron Flame

Join the rebellion in Aretia!

 Iron Flame by Rebecca Yarros is the second book in the Empyrean series, romantasy books that have taken the internet by storm. It sees us return to Basgiath after Violets world view has been destroyed at the end of Fourth Wing.

 Jen and Ellie review the plot, characters and how the world and story expands before battling against the challenges in the book. Dragons and Griffins and Wyverns, oh my!

 Let's see if we survive this!

Transcript

IWST_Episode_3_Iron_Flame
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Jen: [00:00:00] Hi and welcome to If We Survive This, a podcast where we read fantasy books and discuss how likely we'd be to survive the challenges in them. A quick warning that this podcast is filled with spoilers for all aspects of the book. I'm Jen, the slightly more bookish side of the podcast, though I do have some fitness credentials.

Ellie: And I'm Ellie. I could survive in the wild for weeks, as long as I have a good 

audiobook. 

Jen: Today we're discussing Iron Flame by Rebecca Yarros. Let's see if we survive this. We return to the story with Violet's recovery in Aretia, the secret rebel city, and hearing about how close the Venin are to attacking Navarre.

Violet, Xaden and the crew decide to return to Basgiath to continue smuggling weapons out, which puts all the now second years in precarious positions. Violet secretly starts researching how the wards were created amid assassination attempts, visits to Xaden who is now stationed in the south, and with their relationship in turmoil as they try to trust each other again.

Violet is targeted by Varrish, a new professor known for [00:01:00] interrogations, who has singled her out for her rebel involvement. Eventually, the pretense falls and Varrish tortures Violet to get information. He is stopped when Dain reads her mind and sees the truth of the Venin and attacks him. Perfectly timed with Xaden making a rescue attempt.

The rebels reveal the secrets of the Venin to all of Basgiathh and leave for Aretia with a large riot of dragons, soon being joined by other dragon riders who are told the truth by those in command. Violet keeps working on raising the wards in Aretia, While the negotiations go on with supposed allies outside of Navarre, but she has little success.

General Malgren approaches the rebels for help during an impending battle he knows he's doomed to lose, but the rebel council declines to help. Violet and Xaden realize the real attack is aimed for Basgiath and the Dragon Hatching Grounds, and leave to defend it. The wards around Navarre are taken down by a secret Venin, leaving them vulnerable to attack and an epic battle ensues that only ends when Violet successfully re establishes the wards with the help of Andarna.

Unfortunately, she is too late to save her mother and [00:02:00] Xaden, who reaches for the forbidden Venin magic, Source, to survive. What did you think of Iron Flame? 

Ellie: If I said that I really enjoyed Fourth Wing in our previous episode, I absolutely devoured Iron Flame. Like, where do I begin? I read this book in under 48 hours during a working week while also doing my actual day job.

This is one of those rare instances where I kind of inhaled a book the way I remember reading as a teenager. Which probably isn't the most, um, studious way to have read this book ahead of doing the podcast. But, uh, it was, it was true to how the book made me feel. So we'll, I'm going to lean on that as a crutch.

Yeah. So I think the short answer is I really enjoyed it. How about you? 

Jen: Yeah, I thought we were going to disagree on this. I did not enjoy Iron Flame. 

Ellie: No? 

Jen: No, I felt it was in desperate need of an editor. Maybe two editors, maybe three editors. [00:03:00] 

Ellie: Oh my god. 

Jen: It was just, yeah, like, the writing, okay, aspects of the writing were still there.

It was still like pretty sticky and I did finish it and I finished it without any like real complaints about enjoying the style as I went. But I did have a couple of like eye roll moments and just getting exhausted with things that are happening that were done really badly. 

Ellie: Okay. 

Jen: So yeah, we're coming at it from very different sides today.

Ellie: Fantastic. Okay, so something I liked, or not liked, but one of the kind of takeaways I had reading this book was, book one, while I had a lot of death and blood and, you know, it was a Survival of the Fittest style, it wasn't like, the intensity, it wasn't the same. For me, it was like, this is a Like lots of people are dying and it's very intense, but it's still almost like light.

Whereas this has gone from just surviving to seeing the destruction around you. And I think the book followed that like intensity and [00:04:00] heaviness. There's a quote in the first half. I think that Xaden says that's the first year is when some of us lose our lives. The second year is when the rest of us lose our humanity.

And I really felt that weight sitting on Violet and all of the new second years, all of her like classmates and just, I guess, yeah, a lot of the characters in general, that weight of like, we thought we were, I don't know, like having survived first year, we kind of thought, not that you think you're safe, but you, you feel like it's supposed to get less intense.

And instead I felt like the world was just falling down on them. falling down around them more. So that's something that I liked about the book. 

Jen: I liked the way that you kind of got more insight onto the second years, because like in the first book you definitely get this thing that like, the second years and third years are all being assholes and they won't even like talk to anyone.

And then when you have your main characters as the second years, it's like, well, that's because, like, 80 percent of the first years are going to die. So we're not going to learn your name until you're probably not going to die. And it's more of a self defense technique than them trying to be like [00:05:00] really mean about it.

And I thought that was interesting. I thought that was well done. 

Ellie: When you say you wish there had been two or maybe three editors, is it how long the book was as well? Because like part one, It's 334 pages. Part two is 289 pages. They could have almost been individual books at that length. Like there'd have been short books.

Yes, but like, it is a lot. 

Jen: So my big problem with this book is like, I don't mind the length. I don't mind long books. I never really have, but too much happened that didn't have any space to breathe. And it was, felt like, you know, Oh, we're, this first thing happened, then another thing happened, then a third thing, then a fourth thing, and you're supposed to have emotional involvement, even though I've never built it.

And you're supposed to feel tension, even though the tension wasn't built because you're only actually heard this thing existed six pages ago, but now you're supposed to care. And I'm like, What? Like I really liked the choice to go from Aretia back to Basgiath because the common choice would be like Oh, you're in the rebel city.

Now you are a rebel. So I really [00:06:00] like that She was like go back in and now you have this secret and now things are gonna be more difficult But then she was like, okay, we're gonna go from the rebel city. We're gonna go back to Basgiath We're gonna have stuff happen at Basgiath and then we're gonna go back to the rebel city and then we're gonna go from the rebel City to another place then we go back to rebel city and then we're gonna go back to Basgiath And all of this happened in one book and it's just like Okay, so we had what could have been essentially two years worth of events happen over four months, and we're supposed to have cared about every single thing that happened, and we're supposed to feel this growing tension, but there's no time for tension because every time you turn the page, it's just like another event.

Ellie: That, 

like, that is really, really interesting. Um, and like, I wonder, did that, for me, add to the overwhelming feeling of the, like, being in second year, having survived as much as they have, and then having to deal with more? I wonder, when I read it, for me, was that more of just, like, The overwhelmingness of everything happening.

[00:07:00] And also I, I read it too fast. Um, for proper kind of digestion, I guess. Yeah. Cause a lot, like you're right. Like so much happens when we were like looking at the summary just there. We don't even actually really talk about the gryphon Riders. 

Jen: Yeah. Not at all. Not even a mention. Cause it's like, Oh, they're allies.

This story is already too long. 

Ellie: I will say I did enjoy the kind of, on the cover of at least the copy of Iron Flame that I have, it has like above the words Iron Flame, it has burn it down, um, written, which I, Took to kind of mean the, the, both the college and the whole kind of military system that the way the company, uh, the company, the country, um, is run.

And, um, I also really enjoyed the burn it down, return to Basigath, the kind of taking it down from the inside approach. It's been in like a couple of different fantasy books I've read this year. There's just something very [00:08:00] pleasing about that concept for me. I don't know, um, where I'm going with this sentence even.

Jen: Yeah, I mean, I definitely, so, one of the things I find really annoying about this is it does things that I would enjoy if they were done better. Like, I feel like the return to Basgiath and the big battle, super interesting, 100 percent in the third book. There's, there's no, like, have the second book be about going back to Basgiath and then being found out and then having to leave and get allies and stop it there and have more time for character progression and have more time to flesh out your world.

So then when we get to a point of saying, like, we're in the third book and things are going wrong, you have this longing for Basgiath. You have this longing of, this was the place where everything was safe. Kind of like, um, in the Harry Potter books, when you go back and you have the Battle of Hogwarts.

It's a case that you're saying like, oh, this is a thing that we know this place is safe, we have a connection to this place, therefore it's important [00:09:00] that it's saved. Whereas Basgiath, it was kind of like, oh yeah, there's this place that sucked and we left it, but now we're back and we have to save it.

Ellie: Yeah, well, at least they do frame it in going back to save the hatching ground for the dragons. That made it more believable as a place that you would want to save than as opposed to this torture college. 

Jen: Yeah, but they did also establish that they have another new hatching ground for the dragons and that all the dragons who are at the new hatching grounds are actually the ones on their side.

So, it's like, well, we're going to go back and save the dragons that don't like us, um, I wouldn't join us, but we like the college, you 

know.

Ellie: No, it's really interesting. And I, so, um, a, I'm not going to call it a problem, but yeah, a problem I, like I've quite often encountered in book twos of a series, I guess quite often series are framed as trilogies, even when then they then become more than trilogies, um, is that book two can sometimes slow down too much.

And I [00:10:00] wonder, In Rebecca Yarros's efforts to make sure that doesn't happen. Did she then aim for too much to happen? The turnaround was also insane between Iron Fl- Er, between Fourth Wing and Iron Flame. Which I guess would also just be a really, really tough deadline to work to. 

Jen: Yeah. Okay, so the thing with fantasy books, and I'm going to say fantasy books in particular because they tend to be series.

When you first pitch a book, if you're a new author, you can't pitch a trilogy or a series of books. You pitch one book that has series potential. Ooh. So, yeah. Then the publisher will publish your first book and then if it gets popular, then you turn it into a series, which I think is a large part of why second books then they stop and they try and say, well, now I have to establish lots of things for the next series that's going on.

I feel like there's definitely things that happened in Iron Flame that would have been better if they had been established in some way in the previous book. And. Was that kind of like scrambling to find a way to make it work with it all happening [00:11:00] in the one book? Like, okay, we're Jack Barlowe coming back from the dead.

I hated it. Hated it. Made absolutely no sense. 

Ellie: Yeah, why they chose, okay, okay, I'll agree. Like, why they chose him to be the person is definitely weird. It didn't, yeah. 

Jen: I was thinking, like, For me, how would, how would this have been better? Because I understand wanting to introduce this concept that there are Venin in Navarre that no one knows about, but it doesn't make sense to Jack Barlowe because like he's, he's a nobody who just got crushed under a mountain.

Why would they put all this effort into bringing him back to life? And beyond why would they put all the effort in? Why would they then introduce him back into the War College without anyone keeping tabs on him? So the way that I would find that would work better is if you could establish Even, like, at the very start of Iron Flame, but essentially, but preferably in, um, Fourth Wing, that there's some senior person who they thought had been killed in a big battle.

And then we find out later that this senior person, they realize they are a Venin and [00:12:00] you want to, like, they want to bring him back to life and cure him because he's important, because he is a commanding figure, and they want to get the information back. And Basgiath is the safest place where they can all keep .

Tabs on him to see if he is reintegrating into society and you have him as like a professor or something instead of a student and all the other professors are there keeping an eye on him and he can do the exact same things that Jack Barlowe does but it makes a lot more sense for them to say. There's like this general who was really cool and awesome and then he was felled in battle and we want to actually bring him back and we want to learn their secrets so we want to do this but it backfired on us as opposed to there's this dude who just died and he is actually one of the bad ones, 

you know?

Ellie: Actually I'm now, okay, so I hadn't even really thought about Jack in my personal notes for this, but so this is all literally just kind of coming up because he wanted to become a dragonrider for the power and it was all about the power for him. And so I'm now wondering, like, did [00:13:00] he become Venin before he died?

And it was because he was Venin that he didn't die being crushed by a mountain and he was alive just enough to be resuscitated by, uh, the mender. 

Jen: Nolan. 

Ellie: Nolan, thank you. At the college. And then they realized that he was Venin and were then trying to like, develop a way to control him. Because otherwise, if he had died and they mended him enough to kind of resuscitate him, but then he had to become Venin to keep living or, or something.

But because becoming Venin seems to be like a choice that you. 

Jen: Yeah. So it is established that he decides to become Venin after Violet bonds with the dragon and he gets pissed off that he doesn't have a dragon and he should get more things than her and then he, he chooses to become Venin at that point.

Ellie: But he did have a dragon. 

Jen: Yeah. But he gets the dragon I think after, 

like, it's. 

Ellie: Ah, okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So in your early days, Venin is probably less traceable and then after he was crushed by a mountain and didn't fully die [00:14:00] and was. Being mended, they discovered he was Venin and they were, and evil, um, commander, uh, vice commandant, um, Varrish in his weird, cause like he was very weird.

Like I, I was sure that he was going to be Venin or something. The way he was like controlling his dragon, the way that that whole thing was described, super, super weird. But then he, he's dead. So, uh, 

Jen: he's just gone, 

Ellie: not complaining, not complaining, but, um, yeah, there's like, I enjoy that like titbits, but there, there were a couple of things for me that from Fourth Wing came through into Iron Flame, but there's definitely a lot more in Iron Flame that I now want to know about in the next book, if that makes sense.

Jen: Yeah, like, I'll definitely like read the next book that comes out, but I don't know. I've lost my enthusiasm for it. 

Ellie: Oh no! 

Jen: Like, one of the things, okay. Navarre is this hugely militaristic society. They've kept this secret about the Venin [00:15:00] for hundreds of years. And then they suddenly decide to tell everybody about it.

Like, okay, so Xaden does this thing and drops the wyvern around the place. And they're like, oh no, what do we do? Now keeping in context that this is a militaristic society where everyone is conscripted and has to go to war in some form, and they recently put down this huge rebellion and killed like hundreds of people for it, for doing the exact same thing.

So when he dumps to Wyvern everywhere, why is their response to go to everyone and say, Oh yeah, the Venin and Wyvern exists. You can join the, the rebels if you want. That makes absolutely no sense. And it is mentioned at one point that it doesn't really make sense in the book, but it's like, very basic, that kind of society, they're gonna say, yeah, Xaden and the rebels threw it there to, like, put you off the scent, they're actually with the Venin and the Wyverns and they're trying to turn you against us.

There's no way that you'd have an entire country that has established itself on centuries of lies for this one [00:16:00] specific thing to everyone just admit to everyone actually. We lied to you. You can join the people that we've told you all your lives are the baddies. We don't care. 

Ellie: Did they actually say it to everyone or was it just to the Riders?

Jen: To 

the Dragon Riders.

Ellie: Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Jen: Yeah. Like, can you imagine like an army going to its army and say, we lied to you. Do you want to join the people who, uh, we keep saying are trying to kill us? Like, come on. 

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah, 

not 

really.

Jen: And, yeah, that and like the characterization of General Sorrengail were just so annoying to me because I was like, there's so much you could have done here.

There's so many better ways or just like more, I don't really want to say realistic because I know it's a fantasy book, but just the things that make more sense for what you have established yourself this world to be. It just doesn't make sense. General Sorrengail, I totally believe that she would give her life at the end.

Yeah. 100%. That's something like she's protecting her family, she's protecting her country, this is all very important to her. But the way she acts in most of the book, that is not the behavior I [00:17:00] would expect from someone who's introduced and known as like this hard ass military general who is in control of training all the dragon riders for their military.

And she just seems like a mom who is slightly snippy with her children. It's like, that's 

Really?

Ellie: I, I have so many questions about, yeah, Violet's parents because I think at the start of the very first book, like, I could be remembering wrong, but Violet thinks something along the lines of, nobody, bar me, will ever know where my dad's research is truly hidden.

And that is then never brought up again. So I, I, I can't shake the feeling that they're That her father was either, like, was doing research on how to change their world in some way. But I don't know what side General Sorrengail, her mother, fell on. Whether or not it was secrets that he learned just by being her husband that he was then like, I'm going to overthrow this weird world.

Or whether it had something to do with Andarna's revelation that she had waited until this incredible scribe was going to [00:18:00] then somehow become a dragonrider. Um, I don't know. Yeah, I, I, like, I, have so many questions. Did I expect her to die at the end? I guess. Yeah. 

Jen: Well, I mean, I don't, I wouldn't say that, like, I went into the battle expecting her to die, but her dying did make sense.

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: You know, it did seem like an in character action as opposed to a lot of the other things she did that felt very not in character to what was being established. Like on one hand when she's being spoken about and then on the other hand when she speaks they seemed very much different people. 

Ellie: Yeah.

Jen: But, to stop and go to something that I did enjoy, I loved, um, Tairn and Andarna, like, 

Ellie: the 

moody teenager, 

Jen: moody teenager and grumpy old man dragon, like, hilarious. And just, we do not eat allies. So good. 

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. I, I also really enjoyed, well, I guess I, like, I'm a lot more positive about this book in general, but yeah, I, [00:19:00] um, I did love their characterizations a lot and they're witty snappy.

Yeah. Chat between the two of them. 

Jen: Yeah. The one where, uh, I can't remember the context, Violet is fighting someone and then Andarna is like, go for the eyes, cry out his eyes, and Tairn's like, don't be so silly, go for the kneecaps. 

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and that, that background commentary is definitely helping you focus on whatever fight it is that you're actually in.

Like, that's what we all want in the back of our heads when we're trying to, like, stay alive. Somebody telling us what to do. I would say Andarna's arc. I, like, obviously we have our chosen female lead. We have a magical dragon. They were always going to be connected, but, and there was always going to be extra magic about her.

I did not predict any of her arc. I didn't, I didn't predict her, her being a seventh kind definitely made itself more and more, like, apparent [00:20:00] towards the end. But like, I didn't follow, I didn't expect the twists that the twists were. Does that make sense? 

Jen: Yeah. Like you knew there was going to be something, but you couldn't exactly say what it was.

So I wasn't sure exactly what it was, but pretty early on I started thinking of Andarna as a mirror dragon because I kept saying how shiny she was. And after the second time I was like, that's intentional. She's just like, there's something about her, her shininess or whatever. Um, so I'm like, she's not like, she's not a black dragon, she's a mirror dragon.

I know they don't call her a mirror dragon. So I wasn't too surprised when it was like, she's the seventh kind. Um, but I wouldn't have, like, if you'd asked me beforehand, I wouldn't have been like, oh yeah, obviously Andarna is like the extra dragon. Yeah. 

Ellie: Yeah. I guess we could talk about a couple of the different, uh, relationships or situationships.

Jen: Obviously the biggest relationship in this book is between Violet and Xaden. And Yeah, they seem to have switched roles, that Violet [00:21:00] now wants this, like, physical relationship, no anything else, it's just fine, whereas Xaden is like, no, we need to have trust, we need to be together, we need to do all this stuff, and I feel like it tries to establish that, like, Xaden is the super open one now that's trying to build a relationship, but Violet is the one who's like, so withdrawn and she doesn't know how to do it.

And it's like, but also to be fair, Xaden is not actually opening up. He's like, ask me very specific questions and I'll give you very specific answers. And Violet is like, I don't want to ask any question because the only questions I know are Bad questions and I don't have context for anything else. So I'm not asking you anything, which is bad on like both sides.

And it's a very unhealthy relationship. They're both being jerks. And yeah, it like, it's, it feels like a realistic relationship with shitty communication, but it wasn't necessarily interesting to read in a book. It was fine, but it didn't have the same kind of chemistry as their, as their first, as the first book.

Ellie: It felt very realistic in that they kind of kept [00:22:00] having the same fight. And the same arguments and same disagreements and that it is very realistic that it would go on for as long as it did. But yeah, as you said, it didn't actually make for as exciting a read in relation to their character dynamic because I could kind of see both sides by the end.

It's like, oh, of course Xaden isn't going to tell you everything. He's known you for what, a year? Maybe. He has a hundred other people's lives tethered to his actions and responsibilities and knowledge. Of course he's not going to tell you things. Why would you demand to know these things and put him through such stress of being like, well, here are the hundreds of lives I'm responsible for that I'm now just like letting you know stuff that could endanger, like, yeah.

But then also, Violet definitely did, was coming from the point of like, well, I can't ask you questions cause I don't know what I don't know and I don't know what to ask. So, um, yeah, I agree that like, I, I would have liked something to get, I don't know, [00:23:00] to push that a bit further. Like I, I enjoyed the realism, but oh my God, the frustration.

Jen: Yeah, so there's this part at the end, I think it's when Violet's talking to the Gryphon Riders, um, and she's giving them the option about raising the wards will mean that their magic is gone, and someone asks her, like, if you say this to Xaden, do you think, like, will he hold off for us? Or will he just do it?

And she, like, recognizes in that moment that, like, I'll say to Xaden and Xaden will say, we have to raise the wards straight away. Like, this is not going to be a concern for him. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: Because he has more things to worry about. And this is an important, like, building block for the safety of the people.

And that started to feel like, oh, she's finally starting to get a bit of cop on in that, you know, he has a lot of things going on that's not just this and he has priorities and they're valid priorities. Like, sorry. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: At least, at least so far a lot of priorities is like, Oh yeah, I have to keep hundreds of people safe.

This might mean I [00:24:00] can't tell my new girlfriend one small thing. Not communicating it well, but still. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: Yeah. I felt like she was 

starting to get a bit of, of, um, understanding there, but I don't think that was like, it felt like that was something she should have started realizing. Earlier, and then also should have worked in a bit more into their communication afterwards.

It seemed to be a realization that then went nowhere beyond just that one comment. 

Ellie: Because then at the end, well, we're talking about the relationship, we can skip to the very end of the book, um, when I feel like, like when Xaden reached for the evil power and became Venin himself, there's this moment where his dragon Sgaeyl

like, as he reaches for the power, she, like, screams 

down the bond, like, No, I chose you. And his reply is, like, Violet chose me as well. And he's doing it to, like, protect her and protect everything. I feel like if there had been slightly more of a resol not resolution, but a breakthrough in their relationship before that happened, it might have [00:25:00] made that moment feel slightly more real for me.

Jen: Yeah, it did feel like, it feels like Xaden is suffering from insta love. Which is actually, it's something I forgot to mention on our fourth wing episode, is that I would have loved to see Violet actually work for the relationship a bit, because everything just kind of fell in place for her, and she hasn't really put in effort, it's just been that she's come to the realization that Xaden likes her, and throughout this book it's like, and Xaden really likes her.

Like, even though she keeps doing some shitty things, Xaden really likes, like, he loves her 100 percent and it's like, but their relationship is, they've got a pretty bad relationship. It's a pretty new relationship and it seems to be based on that they like to have sex and it's kind of like, that's not a, I'm gonna, you know, overturn the world for you basis of a relationship.

And I'm all for them having this, like, fantastic love, but they, yeah, they never had a big breakthroughs of togetherness, you know? 

Ellie: I, like, my heart did break from him though [00:26:00] at the end. 

Jen: Oh yeah, same. Like, I felt so 

bad for him. And like, he has, you know, he has the knowledge that if he dies he'll kill everyone else in, like, the little chain as well.

And, like, it's like, oh no, this is, like, this is This is something that I have to do and yeah, heartbroken for him. Still think the relationship could have been written better. 

Ellie: And I guess one of the characters that featured quite heavily in our character progression discussion for the first book, and he's completely shifted for the second book, is Dain.

Jen: I'll be honest with you, I think Dain is one of the few characters who had a character progression in this book. I don't think Violet had any. She's the same person at the start as at the end. Xaden didn't really feel like he changed at all. But Dain actually went from being, like, well, the Dain of Fourth Wing, to realizing he was wrong, trying to make amends, trying to move forward their relationship, and trying to make things work.

And it's like, You've progressed, you're not, he's not in the book that much, but he has a character progression whereas I felt like nearly no one 

else did. 

Ellie: [00:27:00] Um, yeah, it was one of those things where, uh, I guess because he ended up being a quote unquote bad guy at the end of the first book, that it took me so long in the second book to trust him, which was quite fitting.

And I still have a bit of a, an oily feel off of him, but, but I, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm hopeful, you know, he, he could, he could end up having, uh, an enjoyable character arc throughout all this, but yeah, I feel like his pivotal moment when he, when he came in when Violet was being tortured, if he had gone either way, if he had seen the truth and still stuck to the rules, or if he did what he did and helped rescue Violet, both would have felt fitting.

Or both would have felt like, like, like that was a, uh, I guess a character defining moment and I could have seen him go either way, which I can't say for, for every character I read about in a book. 

Jen: Yeah, he was definitely established that he had enough on either side that you're like, Oh, like, he is honorable, but he's such a rule follower.

And he done this because he [00:28:00] thought it was right, even though it was really wrong. But like, did he learn that what he did was wrong? And yeah, I thought that was like really Really well done. I did get the impression in the scene, though, before he was to read Violet's Mind, that he had been training with Varrish, which, to me, when we learn about what Varrish was doing, I would assume that he had been trying to read Jack Barlowe's Mind.

But he never mentions at any point about Jack Barlowe or the Venin or anything like that. So it kind of feels a bit odd. Like, it feels like that that was possibly a throwaway line that should have been edited out. 

Ellie: I'm actually struggling to remember what Varrish's signet was. 

Um,

Jen: it's something similar to Dain's.

Ellie: Weakness detection, 

apparently. 

Jen: Oh yeah, he can tell what people wanted. 

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah, so I guess maybe just the fact that his signet is kind of mind related meant [00:29:00] that he is probably more, um, Equipped than Professor Carr, is that the, that was the professor who could, who dealt with most mind stuff. Or not mind, signet training stuff.

I guess his was close enough to, to mind Varrishs' that he could help Dain. But, yeah, I guess there's still a lot that Dain might be know, or reveal in the next book or not at all. It could have just been a, I guess I have to wait and see if it was a throwaway sentence or if, if it will lead to more. 

Jen: Speaking of throwaways, oh, so sorry to go past, go like off character progression for a moment.

When Violet gets attacked when she's on watch, I swear that is the first time them having to go on watch is mentioned in the book is like two pages beforehand where she's like, Oh. And I'm on watch tonight. It's like, when have you ever been on watch before? Never. Except for the one moment where, for the plot, you have to go up there to get attacked.

Ellie: Now that you bring it up [00:30:00] like that, I thought they were going on watch for, for some, that, it wasn't around the threshing or something. No, was just a, just a, like, just brought up out of nowhere. 

Was it really? 

Jen: So there was like, there was an event. It was, I don't, can't remember if it was the threshing or one of those related things.

Because every time we, we came in, they'd have like, you know, parapet duty or whatever. Yeah. But for some reason on that one, They had to go on watch to the flame pit on the top of the tower, which apparently was of big religious significance. We've been told that things get burned, but like, okay, there's now a tower with a religious flame pit that apparently they have watch 

on.

Ellie: No, I, I knew there was the tower for the flame pit because there was the talk of like having to carry stuff up and Jack's, not Jack, uh, Liam's stuff in the previous book. I don't remember it being a tower thing, but actually, now that you, now that you question the watch on the tower, yeah, I just assumed it was tied into whatever event had happened beforehand, but you're right, it might have just been, people have watch duty and, [00:31:00] and it's never been mentioned before, but it, but it exists.

If, if that's true, that, that is a little bit of a hole that could, should have been picked up on. One thing that I did feel, uh, Like both of us picked up on from the first book that did come true in the second book was Xaden's mind reading abilities, which I think was laid out subtly enough in the first book that it wasn't like Glaringly obvious, but it was also very satisfying when you then got to the point and you found out and you're like, Ha ha!

I knew it! 

Jen: Yeah, that was definitely good to see. And also to see that it's possible for people to hide the intrinsic powers that they get. I do feel like that Xaden has this deal to keep Violet safe and make sure she doesn't die outside of the standard things. Because I'm just thinking of the scene, you know, when she's hiding in the tree and, uh, she, she sees a secret meeting.

And it's, it's [00:32:00] one of these things that's like, it almost feels like the deal was put in to make that seem, make more sense as opposed to seeming really fluffy. 

Ellie: Oh, I don't know. I, I, I, like that works for me. It's okay if it didn't work for you, but it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it meant to be true.

Jen: Like the mother deal thing?

Like the, so the problem I had with it is initially when she gets told, she's not like angry about it. She's just kind of like, Oh yeah. And she doesn't have much of a reaction. She has a reaction like much later on and it becomes a deal, but when she first gets told it's kind of like, Oh, he had a, he had a deal with my mom.

Ellie: :For 

me, that plays into the, just kind of. Like, I'm not going to say trauma processing, but the intensity of just, like, my life is now a shitstorm. That you kind of get a piece of information and then it takes you, like, a month to be like, wait a second. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: And 

process that, that, like, traumatic bit of news or whatever.

Jen: Yeah, no, that's fair. [00:33:00] When she finds out that her mom is the one that gave Xaden the scars, I genuinely, I was so, that was so obvious that I thought it had been specifically confirmed in book one, that she was the one that gave him the scars and that it was like a reveal and it's like, how is this a reveal?

Yeah, obviously she's the one that gave him those scars. How is this a revelation to you? This is a revelation to anyone. Like, come on. Come on. 

Ellie: I do remember it being, um, like, I remember because, like, Dain knew when Violet didn't know in the first book and he would kind of constantly drop hints along the lines of, like, there are reasons for him to hate your mother that you don't know that I do, that I had always inferred as to being about the scars and stuff.

I just expected more. I still just expected, like, that there's more to her parents than we've been told. [00:34:00] That there's, that there's like, I don't know why my gut is like, their, her parents were either on the good side, or like, Really, really, really, really, really bad, but that they just can't stay in this like gray middle ground of like, I feel like they were either good guys disguised or have actually done like even worse atrocities, like her father burned, uh, stuff in the scribe's quarter that, that, that hinted at, at stuff.

Like, I don't, I don't actually think that. I think he was compiling a book on how to save the world. 

Jen: One of the things that I did really enjoy in this was. the expansion of the dragons being like their own people that they had their own politics and like okay it has like was mentioned in the first book that they had the Empyrean that they would all talk to each other but it really kind of expanded that there is a rift in dragon society that None of the Riders have been told about that this is their own thing going on and it really just kind of it went much Further into that which [00:35:00] made it a lot more interesting for me 

Ellie: Yeah, 

Jen: and it was nice to see Tairn doing some like dragon shit That's gonna like fuck things up for Violet that he's like, well, this is a dragon's response to it Like when Varrish was um trying to punish her for Andarna not coming over and she's like, I don't know what to do And Tairn is like I'm gonna kill this fucking dragon 

Ellie: Yeah.

Jen: And it's like, what? That's like, obviously that's escalating the situation really fucking hard, but it's like, well, this is the dragon way to do it. He can't give you orders if he doesn't have a dragon because we're the ones that are important. So I'm going to kill his dragon. And it was just, I thought it was so great to be like, yes, these are like, they have their own mind kind of thing.

Ellie: Yeah. 

Yeah. That they really are not just there like to back up the rider. Mm. Or like, like, despite it saying that they are, they're individuals, it's nice to actually see them being individual. 

Jen: Yeah. Yeah, so, okay, sorry, we've gone off topic, which is [00:36:00] my fault, but just on the, back to the characters, um, we did see the introduction of Cat in this, Catriona.

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: Who I thought was interesting, um. Like when you first see her and you see her motivations, they're all through Violet's lens. And then as Cat herself talks, it's a lot less, um, like sexual jealousy, which is what Violet assumes. And she's like, uh, no, I was supposed to be like the fucking queen. What is your problem?

And it's like, Oh, yeah. Okay. That feels like a lot more of a solid motivation than there's this, there's one pretty man on the continent. Why can't I have him? 

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. As soon as the queen thing was revealed, it was like, Oh, okay. This is more depth. I'm also like really interested in how the gryphon riders powers.

Can work so well, like, despite Violet now having a really good, like, shield, like mental shield for other signets and powers and stuff now, [00:37:00] how that's, how that stuff can still kind of like worm its way in, or it just kind of works. Somewhat differently. I was quite intrigued about that. I guess that it, yeah, is another element that I, I really want to see fleshed out more or explained more.

But also it was kind of, like, the one bit that I did appreciate was that so often in these books, the, like, the male character will have, like, the ex or whatever in the, like, from the past reappear. But the female main character, like, Will either, like, have had an ex, but only mentioned, like, once in the first book, and otherwise her world is kind of the male main character.

And when Cat comes up and is kind of a thing, I think Xaden does tease her or kind of poke at, like, well, like, do you have exes, and like, she's like, yes, and he's like, are any of them Dragon Riders? And she's like, no. He's like, well, then I don't care. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: I, 

Jen: and he's like, Uh, I bet they're like infantry [00:38:00] then and she's like, I want to change topics because that is way too close to home.

Ellie: Yeah. Uh, and I, sorry, I just wanted to say that I appreciated that yes, she had a past that isn't just all about the main male character. And one laugh, or one laugh, one line before we leave 

Cat completely, that did make me laugh out loud. Her chuckle was somewhere later in the book. Violet has the kind of zinger response, like riposte to Cat at some point where she's like, Oh, and that thing that you said you taught Xaden about like, with his hands or whatever the phrase is.

Thanks so much for getting me to ask him about that. That was great. I'm not doing it justice here, but, uh, if you read the book, you hopefully remember, um, what I'm talking about and it made me chuckle. Yes, this book passed the out loud laugh test, if such a test exists. And I guess, um, one of the final, uh, discussion topics would [00:39:00] be language, either the literal languages that are used or how the books are written.

So do you have any points you want to make, feedback you want to give? 

Jen: Yeah, there was a few instances of, uh, some modern slang in this book, and that's gonna age like milk. Like, oh my god. At one point, one of the characters is like, oh, she's in her desperation era. And then Xaden at one at another time is like, yeah, you and me, Violet, we're endgame.

It's like, like I'm a Swiftie, sure, but no. No, just stop, please. 

Ellie: Okay, the, the desperation era, I have completely forgotten. And yes, that is bad. Endgame, I think, has existed before Taylor Swift. 

Jen: Definitely. But like, in the context of to feel like you and me were endgame. Yeah. Like that feels a very, like it's a very modern slang.

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: Please no. There's another thing that started getting to me towards the end of the book, which was, so when you're writing about things happening, You have a [00:40:00] certain amount of information that, um, different characters have and that the reader has and that the writer has and you give out this information in different ways depending on what you want to do.

So if you want to build tension, the reader is going to have more information than the character. So if you want to, like, build a mystery, the characters will probably have more information than the reader. One of the things is, when something happens, you're like, oh, this thing happened. And then we're going to read about what's happening.

without context and then we'll find the context out a little bit later. Or you can be like, here is all the context and then here are things that are happening. And it got to a point that I was finding it really frustrating that the characters would have a conversation that you have zero context for and they'd have a back and forth and things would go on and then two pages later or something they'd give you the context for that conversation.

And then you'd have to go back and be like, Oh, right. Okay. And now if this happens, like, occasionally, that's just like, writing, like, sometimes it's like, Oh, we're going to introduce things that are happening. And I'll tell you exactly why [00:41:00] later. But it got to a point that this was happening so frequently.

Um, and like scene after scene, that I was just kind of like eye rolling at it that I was like, Is there a point in me reading this conversation? Or should I skip ahead? figure out the context, come back and read this one now. It just felt like, felt like that's something that should have been caught for like a tonal flow kind of way because yeah, after a while it just started getting really frustrating.

Ellie: That's really interesting. I've never um, heard that way of breaking down tension, mystery, and who has fought knowledge. Uh, I'm going to be approaching All of my books with a new understanding now and also looking for, yeah, when the conversation is had and when the information or the context is dealt out, um, that's, that's something that I actively read.

Pay attention to. So, I'm really curious now to try and spot that for myself. 

Like, it's one of the things that ideally you wouldn't notice because it's done well and when it's done well you don't see it. 

As soon as you were explaining [00:42:00] it, it made perfect sense. It's like, oh yeah, like when I know that the murderer is behind the door and the character is just walking slowly towards the door and I'm like, no, don't open the door.

Like, yeah. Yeah, it makes so much sense, um. 

Jen: Do you have anything that you want to say on the language side? 

Ellie: Um, no, for me it didn't change too much from book one to book two. 

Jen: Okay, cool. Uh, do we want to go on to challenges then? 

Ellie: I guess 

so. I guess it's time to see if we'd survive. 

Jen: So the first challenge that I kind of identified was in their, um, Rider survival course thing, and they get kidnapped and they get dumped in the middle of nowhere with two maps and to try and figure out where they were going.

And it turns out the two maps were different and they couldn't figure that out. 

Ellie: Yeah, not going to lie. As soon as there's mention of two maps, I'm like, Oh, they're different. They're different. Like, yeah. 

Jen: It's such like a school thing for them to [00:43:00] do. Like, that's 100%. I could imagine our schools doing that and then be like, well, this is why you need to communicate to each other.

And it's like, the second someone does that, you're like, check the fucking maps, check the maps. 

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. Having done like some basic orienteering and like La Trecque, which is basically orienteering on horses, where you have like five minutes to look at a map to get your locations and to figure out where you have to be at what times.

Yeah. That, that clicked for me instantly. So I feel like us going in at the age we are now, we would have done so much better. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: In that challenge. It felt very accurate as a year and second year of school challenge. I just, I was reading it being like, no, what are you doing? It was also enjoyable to actually experience some of the like students from the other quadrants as well.

Jen: Yeah, definitely. I loved that they were talking to the infantry and they actually had to admit at certain points that it's like, well, the infantry are actually a lot better at these things than we are. Like, yes, we have [00:44:00] dragons. We were do the dragon thing. 

Ellie: Yeah, we have no experience of actually like trudging on the ground because we think we're just too cool and we always fly about.

Jen: Actually, so I don't know if we could call this a challenge but so Violet every morning starts running because she wants to like improve her fitness which I mean cool I feel like we could both do that. 

Ellie: Mm 

hmm. 

But yeah, I think you and I, we'd smash the morning runs, no problem. Yeah. Not a bad thing. As an aside.

However, going from the, like, RSC, like, map challenge, like, that felt very much like, yes, this is something that people would do running a militaristic college. I can see this being part of, like, any other kind of training center, be it, like, fantasy or not. The torture training. Felt like a huge escalation.

Jen: [00:45:00] Would I survive the torture 

training? Uh, I don't know. Uh, I've not been hit many times in my life, outside of like, fighting classes. Fighting classes? Martial arts classes. So I don't know how I would take getting beat up. I'm happy to say that I'm like, pretty confident that I would notice the drink. Like, it's so obvious when they give you a drink.

Like, don't drink anything because they're gonna take away your connection.

Ellie: Same. 

Jen: But, Yeah. I don't know. 

Ellie: Yeah. That one, that one's also very hard to read. Yes. I think, I think we should both, I think we're both just, uh, generally grateful that we don't have any life experience that would, uh, lead to us knowing whether or not we could survive torture training.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we'd both be smart enough not to, to drink the water. Let's just, the rest is a, a, a wing and a prayer. So. 

Jen: Okay. So, um, like Violet spends a lot of time in this book. Like studying [00:46:00] and like getting forbidden texts and stuff. Um, would we consider that a challenge? Like, is that? 

Ellie: Oh, is that a challenge in itself?

Oh, I don't know. I will say that as soon as, so at some point Xaden, Like early on, leaves a book on knots in Violet's room. And I was like, oh my god, is this, like, what magic is this going to be related to? And lo and behold, it was related to, so I, I don't know if this is, like, just Violet needs to start believing that she's the main character in her life more, or, or if it's just, I was reading, like, we're reading a book and we're like, oh, what is this going to lead to?

But as a, as quite a nerdy person, I I think I'd quite enjoy the studying element of this, of these books. I definitely said in the first book, or in our first podcast of the first book, that who doesn't love the setup of like, magic dragon assassin school? 

Jen: Yeah, I mean, uh, we're doing a podcast about reading books.

I think we were [00:47:00] both pretty good at reading books. And like the knots thing. I feel like I'd be pretty, like, I'd be able to do that. I can knit to a basic degree. I've done occasional fancy ish patterns with that, which I'm going to say is in some way transferable to knots, um, so. 

Ellie: We have both done quite a lot of rock climbing.

We can do a figure of eight in our sleep. 

Jen: Hundred percent. 

Ellie: Like, yeah, yeah. We've got clove hitches galore. We'll be fine. At least I can assume I'll be fine drawing an invisible. knot in the air in front of me. 

Jen: One of the things that happens like, midway throughout the book, uh, when Violet first meets Cat and Cat starts messing with her head and like, Boosting all her emotions so that she acts completely irrationally.

Yeah. Like, how do you think you'd handle that? 

Ellie: So I'm going to admit, I didn't think this podcast would, like the premise of this podcast would [00:48:00] involve me doing so much introspection and, uh, laying out my faults and fears, um, to the unknown, uh, universe. But here we are. Cause, um

despite the therapy that I have gone through, I feel like I would fall prey to cats powers. Especially not knowing what they were or how they worked beforehand. Not realizing just the effects that that can have. You don't really want to talk to me in the morning if I haven't had coffee or food. I am a hangry person.

Naturally. So I would be worried about this emotional heightening, yeah, power, for sure. How about you? 

Jen: Yeah, I mean, especially if I didn't know what was going on. Like, I've definitely had times where, you know when you're like, I'm a little irritated, and then the little irritated turns into a big irritated.

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: If someone talks to me, I will, I will just straight up murder them. Like, Just put me in a [00:49:00] room somewhere until I can calm down. And I feel like, yeah, that would definitely be an issue. 

Ellie: At least you're both self aware enough to admit it.

Okay. But then, um, having hopefully been saved by somebody else from Cat's Powers, um, we would then have to climb the narrow path. Up to the pass through the mountains with the gryphon Riders as our quote unquote bonding exercise to, uh, put all of our pasts behind us, I guess, and help each other over the, over, over the literal Mountain.

Um, how are you, how are you, how's your head for heights? 

Jen: Okay. So I've got like really different distinctions for the kind of heights that I do and don't like. And I'm usually okay with. A hike, as long as it's not one of those hikes that, you know, you're standing on. A small wooden beam and holding onto a rope on the side of a mountain, which I've never seen in real life, but [00:50:00] I've seen them on Instagram enough to be terrified at the concept.

Um, so those are the worst, but the actual paths all sounded big enough for like a person to walk on. The problem was the gryphons. 

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: Which just makes me feel like this challenge is a random Saturday morning for us. 

Ellie: Yeah. I did feel bad that they couldn't have come up with a better way. Like, it worked for storytelling, for learning more about these people, but yeah, the poor gryphons really was the main thing.

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: Yeah. So, the hike, we're fine. No problem. The long jump that Violet had to do at some point, where she got the knife stuck in halfway across to do her little, like, cool swingy leap thing. I am also of the short persuasion. So that would probably have been necessary for me as well, or at least some sort of adaptation.

But that was the only 

Jen: Yeah, I feel like there's a few things there. Like people offered half toss them across and grab them on the other side, and they said no. It's like, oh, well, there's your pride. [00:51:00] But It also is like, they knew there was a pressure plate there. I feel like it would have been easier to like, properly climb.

Like, there's no way that that was a sheer cliff edge at the top and the bottom and there was no way to actually just climb around it. Like, yeah, that just seems like there were other options that they just 

did not take that would have been easier to take. 

Ellie: When I read that section, I just got flashbacks to Gimli in Lord of the Rings with the, You're going to have to toss me.

Just don't tell the elf. 

Jen: Uh, yeah. 

Ellie: While we might be emotional wrecks, we will, we will climb the narrow path to the mountain. Yeah. Um, yeah. And then I guess one of the final humongous challenges of this whole, uh, book is the epic battle at the end. And, I guess, a specific moment is, um, Violet's dragon base jumping, if you like to call it.

Jen: Yeah, when she, like, gets up on Tairn and jumps across to I [00:52:00] think she jumps onto a wyvern first, and then she jumps onto Sawyer's dragon. Um, sliseag, I think. And then Saves Sawyer. I'm gonna say this is beyond, this is like, this, My Fear of Heights, That's the kind of thing that I would not be able to do.

No. 

Ellie: Yeah, that particular moment isn't something that I feel like is a skill that we can acquire. That's more of a, um, Yeah, death defying. Leap of faith. So. 

Jen: Death defying main character 

moment. 

Ellie: Exactly. Exactly. I don't think, I don't think we would ever possess skills relevant unless we become actual base jumpers.

But I don't see that in our futures just yet. 

Jen: I mean, I could imagine a gymnast wouldn't have trouble doing that. Hmm. I'm not a gymnast. I can kind of do a handstand. That's about it. So 

yeah,

Ellie: I haven't, I haven't, I used to do a lot of cartwheels and such. I haven't tried in several years, not since I started running and lost all my flexibility.

So 

Jen: I can do the thing at the start where they put their hands up and they pose. [00:53:00] Like, so I got the start and the end of every gymnastics routine down. 

Ellie: Just got to work on the middle. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: Yeah. So while I feel like a lot of the challenges in the first book were Achievable because they were there to kind of weed out the first years and there was something that we could both like theoretically work on.

For me, the second book definitely felt a bit more like, like, like with this final battle. It's not really a survivable world. 

Jen: Yeah, I feel like it's doable up until the final battle and then That's just, there's a level of skill, but there's just so much luck that would be involved in anything there. 

Ellie: So yeah, final battle, 

we can, we can flip a coin each and see which of us are making it to book three.

Jen: Um, would you say like, what, 40 percent survival chance? 

Ellie: Overall? 

Jen: Overall. Overall for the book. 

Ellie: That would be the most generous I would give. Yeah. Yeah. With the, with the torture. With the Yeah. Yeah. 

Jen: We're probably not surviving Iron [00:54:00] Flame. 

Ellie: No. 

Probably not. 

Jen: Do you have any predictions for the next book or for the rest of the series?

Ellie: Ooh. Okay. Well. Xaden is gonna have to learn how to control his Venin powers, so he's gonna have to go off on his own journey. Somehow, to do this. Whether this involves him bringing Sgaeyl, his dragon, with him or not, unknown. Because if, if that does happen, are we going to have another back and forth? The same way that we did for the first half of Iron Flame, where they're like, flying to meet each other every, like, four or five or three days.

Once a week, that was it. So, I feel like he might have to set off on his own, kind of, quest by himself. I feel like, at the end of Iron Flame, Xaden's dragon is, like, in the chapter from his point of view, she is clearly heartbroken, distraught that he reaches for this evil power. But then, when Violet comes outside to find him, and [00:55:00] it's revealed that he is Venin, Sgaeyl does say to Violet directly, like, Be gentle with him, like, as she approaches.

So she clearly, like, forgives him to a point. Still cares for him. But I think when he has to go off to the wastes or whatever, wherever it is that he has to learn, I think she might stay behind. It's really hard, like, I'm not, I guess, because it ends on such a cliffhanger. It's hard to know about that bit in particular.

Because Andarna, Has powered the, the ward key? Yes. Floor gate. Stone. I'm reading too many books at the moment that have wards in them. Because she's powered the ward stone at, uh, Basgiath. And she is the first mirror dragon or whatever. her seventh style of dragon are going to be called, to hatch in hundreds of years.

Like, we don't know if there's gonna be another, if there's already another hatchling of her ilk, but that means [00:56:00] that the ward stone in the rebel camp cannot be relit, repowered, re energized, or whatever just yet. But I wonder, are there dragons often hiding? Who are, or like, in some other area of the continent who could power that instead.

I don't know. Um, we're still waiting on Violets. next, like her second signet. The fact that Xaden has two because his, his grandfather had the same dragon I guess is, is one version, but it kind of, it intensifies this idea that you can have more than one and I still believe Violet will have another one, I, I guess.

I just, I just don't know what it is yet. Um, but I feel like she is only coming into her powers. Okay, what are your predictions now that I've rambled? 

Jen: Um, I'd say it would make sense to have Xaden Um Go and, like, join the Venin, but, like, as in, like, he's a secret spy for the good guys kind of thing. I like to imagine he goes off into the Barrens or does something so he starts learning, but I also kind of [00:57:00] feel like he might just get kept and him being a Venin almost just becomes a relationship issue as opposed to a real issue.

I can see the. I can't remember what they're called. There's an island nation that um, Navarre betrayed previously and I can see them coming in like a lot stronger in the next one. 

Ellie: Will they have water dragons. Sorry. 

Jen: I also kind of felt that there was a lot of focus on this continent. And it's specifically being a continent that has been split up as opposed to the world.

And I wonder if we're going to see like dragons and things from different continents come in later. That it's going to expand beyond the Navarre Island with all the stuff there and it's going to be like, oh, well, these guys from X other continent, they have their entire old world that we don't know about because we're an isolationist state.

Ellie: I do really enjoy the isolationist state and how it leaves so many questions [00:58:00] up in the air. in general, that like, a lot can kind of be turned on its head still. And it'd just be a case of like, well, you have been in the dark for hundreds of years because nobody was allowed into your country. 

Jen: Yeah, I wonder, um, what the expansion on the dreams of the sage will be.

Because I was a bit unclear at the end on whether those dreams were things that both Violet and Xaden were having or things that only Xaden was having that Violet was getting through the bond that they have. 

Ellie: Oh, Jen you just blew 

my mind. I assumed they were her own dreams. 

Jen: Yeah, I kind of, like, the way he was talking and then the sage was also talking to Xaden, it's like, well, it all applies to Xaden too, and he got him, and he's the one who fell for love, and she wasn't the one that fell for love.

Ellie: Okay. Oh, God. Ah. How dare you blow my mind at the end. Because, [00:59:00] so, what I had meant to do before now was to go back to Violet's dreams, because I remember the Sage saying, in my head, he had said to, in Xaden's dream, that like you will fall for love, and that in Violet's dream it had been something more along the lines of you will bring down the world.

For, like, what you think is right or something. I had thought she was actually gonna, she was gonna be the one to not destroy but take out the Ward stone at Basgiath. Mm. Which, like, I, like, there was a short period where I thought that, like, she was gonna take that one out. 

Jen: Oh, same, yeah. 

Ellie: To restart all of the Ward stones or something on the island, or on the continent, that there was gonna be some sort of connection that way.

There might still be, I guess. But, I guess that could've, oh, could've all just been through the, oh, I wonder. 

Jen: Yeah, but beyond that, I don't really know because I just, yeah, as I said before, I don't [01:00:00] feel like the story is getting a lot of room to breathe. I feel like there's not a lot of like tension building or really relationship or character building that's been going on.

So I could guess like six or seven things that could happen, but anything could happen because I don't feel like there's being a very coherent progression, um, in a steady way. So 

who knows? 

Ellie: Well, I guess we have three more books. Right? It's, it's pegged to be a five book series, so still plenty of space for, uh, a lot to be cleared up and discussed and elaborated on.

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: And so I think book three isn't out until December, mmm, this year. So, yeah. At the time of recording, we still have 11 months until the next book comes out.

Jen: That is a really fast turnaround. 

Ellie: Fourth Wing came out in something like April and Iron Flame then came out in December. 

Jen: Really? 

Ellie: They both came out last year and then Rebecca Yarros is quote [01:01:00] unquote slowing down by taking a whole year to write book three and people were a bit like unimpressed that she was gonna take a whole year and I was like oh my god, how has she written so much so fast?

Jen: Oh my god, you're right. Yeah, Fourth Wing only came out in April. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: Okay, now obviously she would have had to have Iron Flame, like, in her back pocket by the time Fourth Wing came out. 

Ellie: Yeah, it clearly had to have already been started. 

Jen: Yeah, but 

that is 

Yeah. 

Ellie: Yeah. It is an insane speed. It's ridiculous.

Jen: Like, I've seen a lot of people complaining about, like, books as fast fashion, and it's like, if you do keep in that kind of way with these style of books, they're just gonna get worse, because you need to have rounds of edits, and you need to have time to plan books. There's a reason books usually take, like, over a year to write, you know?

Well, yeah. Um, we'll, we'll see you in December. Uh, how book three of the Empyrean goes. Great. Uh, thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and you can find us on Instagram as if we survive [01:02:00] this, we are also on threads. And uh, if you find us there, let us know of any books you'd like us to review.

Ellie: And our next episode 

will be The Hobbit by J. R. R. Tolkien.