Assassin's Apprentice

Train as a royal assassin! 

Assassin's Apprentice by Robin Hobb is a classic fantasy novel and first in the Farseer trilogy. Train as an assassin, dodge political plots and hide the wrong kinds of magic.  

Jen and Ellie review the world building, plot, language and characters (spoilers and all!) before creeping up on the challenges in the book. This book had them at their Wits end! 🗡️ 

Let's see if we survive this!

Transcript

IWST_Episode_5_AssassinsApprentice
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Jen: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to If We Survive This, a podcast where we read fantasy books and discuss how likely we'd be to survive the challenges in them. A quick warning that this podcast is filled with spoilers for all aspects of the book. I'm Jen, the slightly more bookish side of the podcast, though I do have some fitness credentials.

Ellie: And I'm Ellie. I could survive in the wild for weeks, as long as I have a good audio book. 

Jen: Hey, so this is future editor, Jen, just popping in to say I was sick when we recorded this and forgot how my microphone worked, which is why my audio quality is terrible. Um, this is the best I could get it. Sorry about me being stuck down a well.

Today, we're discussing Assassin's Apprentice by Robin Hobb. Let's see if we survive this. We follow Fitz, the illegitimate son of Chivalry Farseer, the initial king in waiting to the six duchies. Fitz is given over to the royal household to be raised at a very young age, and his arrival leads [00:01:00] to Chivalry removing himself from succession, leaving Fitz to go unacknowledged.

Straight away, Fitz meets Burrich, the Stablemaster, a loyal friend and servant of Chivalry's, who becomes his surrogate father. At the same time, he starts to discover an ability to connect with animals and read people called the Wit. It's a natural ability that is harshly treated in the Six Duchies, and Burrich's vicious reaction to it has Fitz hiding it from everyone around him.

As he gets older, Fitz moves from the stables to the royal household, pledging himself to the king and starting training befitting someone of those circles. He's quickly brought further into royal intrigue by the appearance of Chade, the royal assassin, who offers Fitz the opportunity to become his apprentice.

Fitz agrees, and his assassin training starts. As this happens, an enemy known as the Red Ship Raiders start attacking the Six Duchies, abducting groups of people and doing something to them that make people almost feral. This becomes known as forging. and becomes rampant. It's so bad that the king [00:02:00] agrees to extend training for something called the skill, a magical ability that is generally limited to the royal line.

Fitz is trained begrudgingly by the skill master Galen, who uses his position to beat Fitz down and try to destroy his natural ability. After being beaten half to death and having the skill used on him, Fitz gives up and returns to being an assassin. Burrich finds out that Fitz has been using the wit secretly, and refuses to acknowledge him or speak to him.

The book culminates with a delegation going to a nearby kingdom to retrieve the woman betrothed to Prince Verity, the new king in waiting. Verity is busy battling the redship raiders, so his brother, Regal, has organized everything. While at the Mountain Court, Fitz realizes that Regal, the third in line to the throne, has double crossed him, setting him up in an intricate plan to get him killed and place Regal as next in line.

Fitz decides to thwart Regal's plans and tells his target, Prince Rurisk, about Regal's coup, but Regal has outwitted him even further and Fitz is [00:03:00] framed for an assassination attempt. Regal's plotting comes together and he tries to kill both Fitz and Verity with Galen doing the deed back home. But, at the last moment, Fitz digs deep and excesses his skill, warning Verity, who takes out Galen just as he's waiting to pounce.

Through this ordeal, Fitz and Burrich make up and decide to return to Buckkeep to see how they can continue to serve their king. Verity. So that's Assassin's Apprentice. Ellie, 

what did you think? 

Ellie: I really enjoyed Assassin's Apprentice. I was a little hesitant starting off because I was in a little bit of a reading slump and you had started the book before me and you were like, you know what, if it's a little slow to get going, that's okay.

Just take your time. You'll get into it. And I I really liked it. I really liked the way it was written, I guess. Um, to be, um, straightforward about it. I feel like Robin Hobb is an author that I have seen in every [00:04:00] bookshop for my whole fantasy reading life. And I have never picked up one of her books before.

And actually, when we, so when we decided to read Assassin's Apprentice, I, Bought it on Kindle that night when we had made the decision. And then I was reorganizing my bookshelves, as you do. You know, favorite weekend hobby. And I realized I owned this book. It's the only Robin Hobbs book I own. It's from Charlie Byrne Bookshop in Galway, one of my favorite bookshops.

So I know that I bought it there, like in their secondhand section at some point, no memories. So, um, I actually got to read a really nice, like cool looking retro version. Diverge completely from if I like the book. Yes, I do. Yes, I like the book. Did you like the book, Jen? 

Jen: I did. I thought it was a really nice change of pace from the other books that we've read so far and also just kind of a lot of the books that, the more modern books that are coming out, there's definitely a very big difference in pace and writing style.

I'm not always a big fan of a slow paced book. It kind of, it does depend [00:05:00] on the writing and there are definitely things in this that I didn't like and I thought could have been done better. But overall, yeah, I really enjoyed it. I've also seen Robin Hobb constantly. I know that like my parents have loads of her books as well and I just never read them.

I just never got around to it and it was good to finally start. 

Finally read one of her books. 

Ellie: And you kind of touched on it slightly better there than I stumblingly tried to say. But at least the last kind of 18 months, I've read a lot of modern, like popular fantasy. 

Jen: Hmm. 

Ellie: The Sarah J. Maases, the Rebecca Yarroses, you know, like we've been keeping up with each other.

We know, we know what each other are reading, all these like really popular books. And some of them are fantastic, but very different. 

Jen: Mm. 

Ellie: I don't mean this as a criticism of modern fantasy. Reading this, I was like, Oh, this to me felt like a step above a lot of what I had been reading recently and thought was good.

And I was like, Oh, no, actually, like, I didn't find the pacing slow. This can tell the [00:06:00] story without it needing to be yes, and, and this, and this, and this, and this. Like, it didn't feel like it needed to be racing for it to be engaging for me. 

Jen: Yeah, I mean, so I would still call it slow pace, but slow pace doesn't mean boring.

Because we, we go through like every event that happens. Like we start off and it's, uh, Fitz gets brought to, um, the castle. Fitz then gets brought to the kitchen. Fitz then goes to the stable and then he goes to the next place. And we're with him every single step. And like another book, like a faster paced book would go, you know, Fitz starts here.

We're going to skip forward to Fitz pledging himself. To the king to be a royal assassin and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just a different form of storytelling. Um, so yeah, like I do feel, you know, modern books, especially ones that are aiming for the kind of like social media popular kind of thing do aim for a lot more like snappy, a lot more fast paced and throwing lots of stuff out there.[00:07:00] 

And it's nice to see something that's kind of like, I know this is written in the early nineties or at least published in the early nineties. And it's a lot more, like, kind of comfortable with itself, that it's like, yep, this is the story I'm telling, I'm gonna take time to talk about all these different things, and what's most important is what's going on with Fitz.

You know, not really a lot of stuff happens in the book, which is fine, but it happens, like, The things that happen, happen to a person, you know, it feels more like rooted and real. 

Ellie: Yeah, I think that's a good way of, it is a slow paced book, but it doesn't, it's just not boring. I'm actually trying to scroll, go through my tabs in the book right now, um, as you're talking, because when you're like, this happens, and then this happens, and this, and we go through every Step.

I thought I, I thought I had marked it but maybe I haven't because there is one moment when I start a new chapter and I read it like I read like a page and a half. And then it is like, Oh yeah, cause we've jumped two years because X happened two years ago. And I was like, wait, what? [00:08:00] And I went like running back to the start of the chapter being like, did I miss something?

No, no, no. We actually did just jump two years. And that was like, that felt like a really big deal. Like. At least in that moment, because I guess everything had been, yeah, like now we're, we're here and now we're going back outside again and now we're going to return to the castle and then we're going back outside again.

So that's a very good point. 

Jen: Yeah. I've got a love hate relationship with like small time jumps in books because sometimes it's hard to tell that it's happened and you kind of be like, ugh, let's go into a criticism of Wolf Hall, a completely different book of a completely different genre. Um, it does a massive time skip in it and I got so confused.

So confused, didn't have a clue what was going on. Um, that doesn't happen with this book. Uh, but I find since it is slower paced that you notice jumps a lot more and you notice kind of changes. Okay. There's this part in it that they spend a lot of time talking about [00:09:00] your first assassination. Fitz is kind of like worried about it and Chade is saying, you know, look, you're going to have to make a call.

Sometimes, sometimes you're not going to kill the person that you said you were going to kill because you've realized something else will happen, but a lot of time you're going to kill them and it's only up to you and you have to make that call. And they put a lot of emphasis on this. 

Ellie: Mm. 

Jen: But then it does jump and it's, it goes like, oh, yeah, well, I've already killed 17 people.

Ellie: Mm-Hmm. 

Jen: like we have Fitz. The first time he kills a person, which, but it's not an assassination. It's a person attacks him and he kills them. So it's a very different situation and it puts so much focus on that, that I felt that was very jarring, that it's like, oh. Why did you make this jump? Why didn't we get to experience the first assassination where he freaks out and he doesn't know what's going on?

It's just like, nah, 17 under the belt, let's keep going. 

Ellie: I guess maybe the first assassination attempt where he does truly have, I guess the responsibility of that decision, is at [00:10:00] the end when he's sent away to the mountains with Regal. And maybe that's part of it. Yeah, who knows, maybe the first 17 are all very, very, very boring, mundane, even for the, for the, for the author.

But yeah, it was that, like, what you're saying about the kind of digging in and like deliberation and like, uh, I guess real discussion of words that had me marking things in the book where I suddenly got really invested in when like a character would use the phrase, like, we, as opposed to you. And I'm like, Oh, so like, this is when I, like, I'm learning now.

That this character is also, like, a bastard or whatever, but Fitz isn't gonna, like, realize it for another, like, hundred pages. And I really, really enjoyed that because it didn't feel super on the nose. Like, maybe it was, and I'm just still in my tired reading slump and I felt like I was being very smart noticing these things.

But I just appreciated I guess, how those moments are written. Like, one of them is, in the summary, you mentioned how, um, Burrich was [00:11:00] so harsh with Fitz about having the wit, and how, like, um, yeah, Burrich was really, like, angry, uh, would be really angry, like, uh, really, you know, Aggressive, whenever he thought the Fitz was using this kind of a magic system, but at some point he says the phrase along the lines, Oh no, like, I can't teach you the Hawks.

They don't like you. You're too, you're too happy or too something. And I was like, Oh, so obviously Burrich has this as well. If he's like, no, no. The Hawks don't like you, so that he knows what the Hawks, there's those. 

Jen: And he actively uses it if he knows the Hawks don't like him. 

Ellie: And I guess his resent or his hatred of the thing then became a real, like, self loathing, like, I felt like his aggression was more than just like, you shouldn't use this, but it was, it kind of added extra layers to it for me.

Jen: Yeah. So, with Burrich, I actually found. One of the first instances that Fitz uses his power, he reaches out to Burrich and he bounces off something, and Burrich pushes him [00:12:00] back, like, magically. And at the start you're not sure whether that's something everyone can do, but as it goes on you realize it's like, oh, Burrich has something as well, like it's the Wit or the skill or it's the something, and it does get confirmed with the hawk thing.

I feel like Burrich's fear of the Wit isn't necessarily only just like, Self loathing, like it's terror for himself. He thinks he's going to turn into this like wild man who can't, you know, communicate to humans. And the last thing he wants to do is see Fitz become like that.

Ellie: Yeah, 

Jen: though I'm going to take this on like a complete turn here and say like, okay, I can't be the only person who got like the gay subtext between Burrich and Chivalry.

Right? 

Ellie: Oh, yeah. 

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Because I was reading it and I was like, this is so like, obvious. Of course. I'm 100 like, This is intended, right? 

Ellie: I don't know if it's like 100 percent obvious intended. Like, similarly to how people talk about, I feel like, in Lord of the Rings with Sam and Frodo, the kind of gay [00:13:00] undertone.

Like, I would believe it either way. Like, but yeah, Burrich's devotion was of another level and like, I can't tell if it is that just like deep platonic kind of a friendship, but then also the earring at the end. 

Jen: Yeah, the earring was a very kind of like, Hmm. You know, if you thought it was only, like, compared to how other platonic relationships in the book that were of the whole, like, I love my king, I'll do anything and die for my king, like, they had those and then also the Burrich and chivalry thing was different.

You know, it definitely felt different. So, yeah. 

Ellie: And actually for, for context, for anyone who hasn't read the book, and I just said the earring thing at the end, that sounds very mysterious. Burrich had given Chivalry an earring many, many years ago that Chivalry's wife or widow then gives to Fitz. When he's departing for the mountains and then Burrich sees on him, when they're off in the mountains and, and, and has a moment of like, what, what are you doing wearing [00:14:00] that?

That's not, I didn't give that to you kind of a thing. Yes. Just to shed some light on, on what I'm talking about . 

Jen: One of the things I wasn't too mad on in the book is there was a lack of tension towards the end. So the Kindle book ends at about 80 percent and the last 20 percent is actually a preview of the next book.

And I felt like when everything had happened in the Mountain Kingdom, I was like, okay, there's still like 20 percent of this book left, I'm ready for the big thing to happen. This felt like just another, it didn't feel any bigger than anything else that had already happened. It was very kind of. I don't want to say one note, but like similar tonally.

It didn't get any more tense. There was no real like climax to it. And it was something that I felt could have been better. I would have liked to know in like that kind of like, you know, we're, we're in the big culmination moment of the book, even as a slow paced book that's talking about like one person, it felt like it could [00:15:00] have been more tense.

It could have been a bit more. Noted of the importance, because it kind of just felt like this is just another thing that you're doing. And it got a little bit more complicated than usual, as opposed to, this is the thing. 

Ellie: Yeah, I kind of get that, I guess, especially because it feels like. Fitz has his trials in the mountain, but then everything just kind of like is resolved very quickly as well.

It's like, 

Jen: hmm, 

Ellie: for a book where we kind of saw every single decision as it went for all this kind of subterfuge to be happening and then it's kind of like, and then we all travel to home. 

Jen: Yeah, 

Ellie: like, like there just wasn't, because like all these things happened and you're kind of waiting I guess for, yeah, a bit of a like Stronger pin at the end, I guess, that for it to just be like, Ah, now, now, home we went.

And possibly there's no repercussions for anybody. Felt a little strange. 

Jen: Yeah, it felt very, and they lived happily ever after. Like, and we got back and Regal didn't get in trouble, because that's just a thing that princes do. Nothing happened to us, because that's just a thing. [00:16:00] Even though he's told everyone that I'm an assassin and tried to ruin my identity and everything.

Everyone just felt like that wasn't a deal. Like, that was a bit like, really? 

Ellie: But anyway, to roll back from the ending already. I guess, so we have kind of two schools of magic in this world. The wit and the skill. It felt like to me, the wit was, I guess, as we said, like derogatory, but also like kind of common.

Like it's only the wild people who have it and then the Skill is kind of ultra refined. Royalty, it's, it's, um, inaccessible. It's, it's whatever. And I think I would have appreciated slightly more on the wit in like a wider context. So when you said that this book didn't feel like it kind of had a climax or like a build to the end.

That made me think about, it's a very second book, first book. Does that make sense as a phrase? Where it definitely builds the world and sets the scene. Kind of like how a second book of a [00:17:00] trilogy is just kind of like bringing context about it and setting you up for then the big third book and final battle.

Like it was a very two towers first book, which is fine. But now I've diverged from talking about the, the Wit and the skill. Like I, I definitely was very intrigued by the idea of, of Fitz having both, him possibly being one of the only people who has access to both of these, uh, schools of magic. I don't know, what do you think about the magic

Jen: So 

I agree on like, the Wit was, you know, it's the common thing. It's the natural thing. And that people can just have it means it's less worthy in like the minds of the people in the book because the skill is something that's acquired and it's only like top of the top fancy pants people get it whereas the Wit is just like oh that's a thing that you can do and like you're just gonna go insane and talk to animals and live in a cave so we'll kill you like it's a real kind of like hmm very different outlook I would have liked to see the Wit be a bit more Solidified.

So I feel like the skill felt [00:18:00] like it had boundaries and it had like an, okay, I don't subscribe to the whole Brandon Sanderson rules of magic, everything needs to be X kind of thing. I like, I don't care, but I do,

Ellie: I've never read any Brandon Sanderson yet. 

I don't know. 

Jen: I'm sure it will be on our list somewhere, but like, I know he has this whole like writing guides on how he writes magic systems and some people adhere to it like it's gospel.

But the thing is, like, the skill is very much, it's like, Speaking mind to mind is essentially what the skill is and implanting ideas in people's minds, but the Wit is never really detailed on what it is, even in like vagueness, it's like, it grows and the definition of what the skill is grows throughout the book, sorry, what the definition of the Wit is.

It grows throughout the book, but I couldn't get a good sense on whether this was trying to be like a natural progression or whether things are just kind of being made up as you went along. Because initially it was the whole thing of like talking to animals and there's the fear that you'll [00:19:00] become like an animal and you can influence the animals and all this kind of stuff.

And that's what's like really established. And then later on, there's like the natural evolution of like, Oh, well you can kind of like, can you influence people? Can you feel how the people are feeling? And yeah, But then it gets to the forged people and all of a sudden Fitz is talking about there being these like bonds, family bond lines that he can see and he can sense that go between different people, which is never mentioned before until suddenly the forged people don't have them.

And then it becomes a point. And it kind of feels like, you know, if that was a thing, we've been with Fitz so close for so long, how come it's never mentioned? Like we're in his head and he never mentioned? 

Ellie: That's so interesting. So that wasn't my problem with the wit. So I found that to be fine because, so when at the very beginning of the book Fitz and Nosy, his first dog, how that's written, how their senses just kind of become layered and layered.

Until suddenly you realize he and the dog are [00:20:00] sharing like stuff telepathically. I, like, I thought that was really interesting and I kind of accepted that both as Fitz gets older and kind of realizes this is more of a power as opposed to something that people can do. I was okay with that. What I got confused about is the, like, the force field that he was able to admit.

Like, I can accept the kind of people then feeling like hollow and then only through, you know, They're not being somebody there that we learned that Fitz, sees people connected in general. But yeah, I didn't quite get the like, the force power because he definitely pushes off people. 

Jen: He does it like three or four times in the book.

Like he does it to Burrich at the start. I think he does it to um, Galen at one point. 

Ellie: Yes, I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. 

Jen: Oh, he does it to Molly's dad as well. 

Ellie: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Admittedly, for me, this is a nit picking feedback criticism as opposed to, like, a dislike. Like, it has me in its hooks enough that I'm really curious how these are going to develop as, like, the book progresses and as Fitz progresses.

Jen: I am interested to see [00:21:00] what comes of the different abilities and, like, obviously Fitz is going to learn the skill soon. Or at some point. 

Ellie: And actually, I guess what I hadn't labelled as a use of magic, but kind of is in the books, is names being shaped by your name. That 

Jen: Is it though? Is it though? 

Ellie: For, for, for the level that the, that I feel like the, the upper classes seem to be shaped by a name.

Jen: I, yeah, so I, I feel like this is definitely something we can discuss. 

Ellie: Okay. 

Jen: I feel like the world thinks that you are shaped by your name. Name, but I don't think any of them are in any way shaped by their names, any more or less than people in real life are shaped by their names, but they have their own system.

So, like, if people will, you know, some people, if you're told to be a certain way, you'll either be that way or you'll rebel and be the exact opposite. And then there's other people who are just like, I'm going to do my own thing regardless of what someone calls me or thinks I should act. Regal sure as hell wasn't that [00:22:00] regal, but he was kind of like a version of regal, but only if you really look into it wanting it to be.

Yeah, sorry. How did you feel about the names? 

Ellie: Oh, that's it, because I, I did buy into, because like, I think in the book it says that once there was thought free power in names, and now it's not really considered as much, but the, the, the lords still do it, yeah, out of tradition. But I think that there, It is still a power in the name and the fact that Fitz doesn't have a name lets him straddle multiple worlds or kind of shift his own 

future possibly.

Jen: So I had initially thought it was going to be a big deal that, so for most of the book, Fitz is called the boy. He doesn't have a name. So Fitz, um, For anyone who doesn't know, it is an actual name to denote a bastard. Um, that's how you have like Fitzgerald, Fitzsimons, uh, Fitzpatrick. They're all the illegitimate lines of a legitimate line.

So Fitz came, became like the default nickname because it's like, Oh, Fitz is a nicer way of, of, of saying bastard. But [00:23:00] Verity does reveal to him later that he does have a name and his name is FitzChivalry Farseer. He just didn't know what it was. 

Ellie: Is that his name though? Or was that just written in a ledger?

Or is that one in the same? 

Jen: He was also given a name and his manliness ceremony, which is mentioned very briefly and just like 

Ellie: Oh yeah, that 

was a bit bizarre. Yeah, what was the name he was given? It was something like, um, uh, Catalyst or something. 

Jen: Yeah, Catalyst or Change or 

Ellie: Changebringer 

Jen: or something.

Ellie: Yeah. Um, Oh, oh, but there was this, okay, so in looking for that, I found a different moment much earlier on the book where there are two women selling stuff in the market and one of them starts shouting, Kepit. And starts struggling and tries to like grab for him. And I was so sure that was his mother. 

Jen: So was I.

Yeah. Then it's like. 

Ellie: Oh. 

Well, no, it 

might be. It might be. 

Jen: But nothing came from it. 

Ellie: Yeah. Nothing came from it. Yeah. Yeah. But I think there's something [00:24:00] beautiful in that. Even if like that nothing came from it, that like. 

Jen: I found that, um, like initially when I was introduced to the different characters, especially like the, the royal characters, I was like, Oh, so they are like their names.

Like King Shrewd, he said stuff that Shrewd. But I, I see. I was with them more. I was like, well, that was a really. Dumb choice. Like, for King Shrewd, that was, like, really? Oh, my son Regal just wants to murder all everyone in the family and destroy our kingdom. Not even slap on the wrist, he'll just, like, continue on, not a big deal.

Doesn't sound very shrewd to me. And then you have like the Lady Patience who, it's like, that was, that's, that naming was much more in the way that like, you would name people in our world as like, I'll name you after a trait that I hope you have. Though it could just be that it's only the royal line that the names actually hold true for and since like the Lady Patience isn't actually royalty and she married in.

Then maybe, yeah, I don't, I [00:25:00] don't know if they do actually hold magic or if it's just a thought that people have. 

Ellie: Her name 

was the one that had the most, um, or the least follow through. 

Jen: Although on names, so I only started kind of like annotating and highlighting stuff about maybe halfway through because there's a few instances of something that was annoying me and I'm like, I want to be able to talk about this.

And then I was like, I'm going to do it for all the things. I found the naming of places in this really lazy, so lazy. The, the main city is called Buckkeep and their insignia is a buck and so it's the buck's keep. It's like, okay. When they're going up to the mountain place, they have to go by the blue lake and then go to the cold ford.

When then they pass through the storm pass, go over the rain wilds to get to the mountain court. And it's like, it felt like there was zero effort put in, like absolutely zero effort put into that. 

Ellie: Yeah. And it's a [00:26:00] tricky one because like when you're reading something, you kind of want the names to feel weighty.

Cause I could counteract your argument by saying that if you translate a lot of Irish names for places, it is just a description of the place. Like, 

Jen: Oh yeah. 

Ellie: Like the village that my mom lives outside of. Translates to like, village on the little stream ford, which could not get more basic. 

Jen: I mean, Dublin is Dubh Linn, which is Black Lake, like totally, but we in English wouldn't call it.

Black Lake. 

Ellie: Yes, but

Jen: I mean, something like it's Blackpool, you would, there are some examples. 

Ellie: Liverpool. 

Jen: It just feels kind of lazy in a book. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: Especially when so many of them happen, like the examples I read out there, they're all within like a paragraph of each other. 

Ellie: Yeah. Somebody that doesn't have a name, though, that I found to be a really intriguing character was The Fool.

Jen: Mm, yeah. The Fool was very interesting. Because you have to wonder what kind [00:27:00] of Ability he has because his ability does not seem like the skill or the Wit so there must be some secret third thing Though like I mean his first Cryptic riddle was really obvious. It's like yeah 

Ellie: the the fits fixes vices fits 

Jen: The dog one.

Yeah,

Ellie: the dog one. 

Jen: Wait, the dog one.

Ellie: Okay. You're, you're, so you're gonna have to explain what the riddle means to me. 'cause I didn't get it. The one that's like fits fixes, faces fits fats suffices. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: You're gonna have to tell what the riddle means. Jen. I don't know what it means. I, I read, I read the whole book and I was like, oh my God.

I do, I do. I get to learn the riddle means in book two. I I didn't figure it out. . 

Jen: Oh. I was like once, um. Uh, what's, what's her name? I don't, I don't remember. The wife of your one came down with, when, they said that she had a dog. And I was looking at it, it's like, fat suffices, it's gonna be a case that he just has to like, feed the dog and take care of the dog, and that means That, that is his in [00:28:00] for fixing this.

He's not going to have to do anything else. Future Jen again, just to clarify, a feist, F E I S T, is a weird word for a small dog and I just happen to know that, which is why the riddle was easy for me to get, which I should have said in the moment, but forgot. Yeah, okay. That's it for me. 

Ellie: Oh. Oh. Ah, I feel so silly now.

The, yeah, the like, kitchen maid that had been, that had been elevated to um, ladyship. Mm. Ah, fat suffices, fits fixes. Okay then. Well, thank you, Jen. 

Jen: Sorry. 

Ellie: It's okay, it's okay. It had to Somebody had to fall for it. I did, apparently. 

Jen: I mean, it is intentionally made, like, difficult to understand. So, like, and he repeats it, like, six times.

In 

different, yeah. [00:29:00] 

Ellie: For the listeners, only Jens are going to see this. All of my tabs are blue, except for the one with the riddle, which is red. Because that's how confused I was by it, and I tabbed the version of the riddle that made the most sense to me. Well, all this really does is further cement my belief from our previous episode in The Hobbit, where Jen would be the one of us that has to do all of the riddle and wordsmithing with Gollum and Smaug.

And I'm just there for the ride for those bits. 

Jen: I do feel like, I feel very sorry for the Fool. Because, I mean, because for obvious reasons, but also, like, you see the kind of life that he's made for himself, and you see that he is, like, he has a lot going on, like, he's not a fool, and he, he was, like, sold to being a fool as well, it wasn't, like, a choice of any form, kind of wonder how he ended up in this weird, kind of, Servitude, especially when he has these abilities, like apparently you can see the future.

So, like, [00:30:00] 

Ellie: yeah, and are, are all fools. Uh, equipped with whatever this third magic is? Is this just like a different role for Fool in this world? That they pretend to be dim witted but are actually powerful players? Or does every court have this, this magical person but they're just sold? and given different roles within a court to, like, whatever, whatever each king is missing.

They'll slot them in the same way the assassin, um, played in this book is also Lady Thyme. Yeah, he's a really interesting character. I'm really excited to, to find out more about him. And like, I almost had the vibe that he was just from like a different kingdom or like mountain tribe. Yeah, I don't know.

I'm, I'm curious. 

Jen: Yeah, definitely want to learn more about him. 

Ellie: When I was flicking through my tabs, um, earlier on trying to find a, a, a reference, um, I came across a moment where Fitz [00:31:00] arrives up into the, um, Up into Chade's little tower and whatever way he looks over at Chade, he's like, he's the spitting image of Verity.

And that was the moment where I was, because at that point I already knew he was a bastard, but I was like, Oh, is he, could he be Verity's son? 

Jen: Yeah. It was hard to be like, which one is he? It's like, I know he's one of them, but which one? 

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. 

Yeah. I think it was until the end that we, that we find out that he is the King's own brother, right?

Jen: Yeah, 

Ellie: yeah, 

Jen: I'm interested to see how and I guess if Chade grows more because although he had like he has pivotal points in the book Obviously Fitz could not be an assassin without the royal assassin, but at the same time he doesn't have a huge amount to do Like he's kind of like instigated a few things and then he's off to the side.

So I'd really like to learn more about him as a character, what he's doing when we're [00:32:00] not with him. Get in his head a little bit, like not in a prospective kind of way, but as in just like learn more about him outside of being the guy who teaches Fitz poisons. 

Ellie: Yeah, I think one of the most kind of humanizing moments was,

was it after Fitz had been told he had to steal from the King. And he was having this big internal dilemma, and he just like, is like falling apart. And then eventually Chade does come down from the tower one night and it's like, It's okay. It's okay. It's all gonna be fine. I don't know if that's the exact moment when that moment happens, but hopefully it's enough of a context, um, to, to specify that like, at some point, Chade is, is like, okay, I can't talk to you until you've done this thing.

And Fitz is just completely torn up and despondent and then he does come down. To console him. Um, that was one of the kind of few humanizing moments for him as a character. 

Jen: Yeah, [00:33:00] definitely.

But talking of somebody who has no humanizing moments as a character, Galen. Ugh. I mean, he has lots of actual very human moments. He's just a horrible human. 

Ellie: Oh, yeah. What a What a well rounded evil person. 

Jen: And also shown later on that he himself is a bastard and I guess it's kind of one of these, you know, this is what you could grow up to be.

Don't be one of those. 

Ellie: Mm. 

Yeah. It really makes you wonder just how much. Old courts were full of illegitimate children. Um, as we're going to list out all the different bastards. 

Jen: Also, I would note, we made a decision earlier on, um, to try and not like curse much. on the show. [00:34:00] And, uh, this, like the second we started this book, I'm like, there's no way we can get away with not saying the word bastard multiple times because it's, it's used constantly in this book.

And I know it's used in context, but it's still considered a curse word. So apologies listeners. 

Ellie: I actually, I guess at the start of the book, in my head, it was a curse. By the end of the book, I had forgotten the curse connotation that we currently have with the word bastard to now. I'm just saying it completely freely when I'm talking about this book, not thinking at all about that fact.

So, um, thank you for highlighting that, Jen. And yeah, I, I apologize, everybody. 

Jen: Um, 

I have, I have a complaint about the language. We're going to talk about language.

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: I read a lot of books. I have a very wide vocabulary. I was looking at so many random little words in this book because it felt like she was trying to find a slightly fancy or awkward way to say lots of things.

About halfway through, [00:35:00] I started highlighting the words that they were specifically words that there were much better known alternatives that meant the exact same thing that could have been used. But she chose to use a less well known word. And the thing is, like, if I have to look up a couple of words in a book, sure, like, there are words I don't know.

I'm not like, I'm not complaining if I occasionally have to look up a word. But there is one point where with Galen, so I, this is, this is the thing that made me want to start highlighting them, but I missed it. Um, but he comes out when he's training people in the skill and he has a whip, but it's not called a whip.

It has another little name that she uses.

Ellie: Oh, a crop.

Jen: No, it's not a crop. 

Ellie: No? 

Jen: No. Because crop would have made sense as well. It's a weird little word that I'd never heard before. And I was like, I know from reading around that she means a form of whip. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: Well, I've never seen that word before. And then after like maybe 10 pages, she starts calling it a whip.

And I was like, well, why did you use this other word? Like, And then things that I have [00:36:00] highlighted are so, you might know this one, but, uh, in the stables at one point, there's the phrase, you know, looking at horses in one of the paddocks and one lady's palfrey. I mean, I'd say that most people wouldn't know what a palfrey is.

I didn't know what a palfrey was.

Ellie: No, that, yeah, that's a very, very specific. 

Jen: It's like, you don't gain anything by it being called a palfrey. Like, there's no extra context there that makes you go like, Oh, it's a such-and-such. Like, it's her war horse. It's like, no, that's just another word to say a lady's horse.

Ellie: But 

also it's, in my head, it's not like, it's a descriptive as in like, of a character. It's like saying somebody's hotheaded. It's not something that you can necessarily visibly see. 

Jen: Hmm. 

Yeah, it's not a word I use often, so like it, it stood out to me, it's like, wait, what? 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: And I have a lot of other words now.

These aren't all, these aren't like the list of words I didn't know. They're the list of words that some of them I didn't know, [00:37:00] but a lot of them I was like, there are easier and better words you can use. So enervated, plenitude, fettle, impercations, serre, scudding, scruple, nonce, poignard, deputations, sobriquet, censors.

All these words are weird ass words that have other things you could use. And after a while, it really started standing out to me that it's like, it feels, there's a phase that a lot of writers go through, especially when you're younger or when you're starting writing and you kind of want to be a thesaurus and you think by using as many words as possible, you're going to show how great you are by writing.

And I didn't get that with the majority of this book, but there's definitely points I'd come across a word and I'm like, who uses that? Why not use a word that people actually know? Like, you're not adding anything to this. You're just making it frustrating. So yeah, that's my little language rant. 

Ellie: You're allowed to have your language rant.

I didn't notice that, [00:38:00] but I don't think that's a case of I knew the words. I think that was just a, I used context to fill in the gaps. 

Jen: Yeah. I wouldn't have looked them up if I didn't have the Kindle. I would have just read around them. But since I had the Kindle, I could be like, wait, doesn't that mean such and such?

Ellie: Yeah, and even actually after you mentioned Palfrey there in relation to horses, I was like, oh yeah, it means I calm, but I was like, wait, does it actually mean more than that? Like, even knowing vaguely enough. I was still unsure of myself. So, yeah, I think I just read around that. Because I didn't have, uh, the handy kindle touch and, touch and tell me feature, um, for this one in particular.

Jen: Ah, I'm trying to remember the weird word she used for a whip and I swear it has a Q in it and I'm just like, Quirt, that was it. 

Ellie: Oh, 

I don't remember that word being used and a short handled riding hip with a bright leather, leather lash. 

Jen: Yeah, because when I was looking it up, I was like, why didn't you call it a riding crop if you didn't want to say [00:39:00] whip?

Like, it would have made perfect sense and people know what a riding crop is, but like, what's a quirt? And as a reader of fantasy, I know lots of random words for whips. It's something you learn. 

Ellie: It really is. Yeah. You learn like, yeah, the different kinds of swords there are. Uh, and it's funny cause like when you looked for the word in my head, I was like, Oh yeah, he carried around a crop, didn't he?

Like, that is what I had mentally already, like, Filed away as, cause that is just a different way of saying a short whip. Okay. Like this is okay. Like, okay. Yes. It has a particular kind of braided leather. I guess it's like, it is different, but like it's very, it is specific. Specific. Yes. Pacific. Specific.

Jen: Yes. Specific. Not the ocean. 

Ellie: This is something that, who knows what this is in the podcast. This is something that I had to learn. As a teenager, the specific versus the [00:40:00] Pacific, um, and I still have to very actively. Uh, remind myself, which is the ocean and which means a thing, anyway. 

Jen: So maybe I shouldn't be discussing word usage with you is what you're saying.

Ellie: I'm saying we both, we both bring different talents to the table.

Jen: Actually, just like a quick thing on language before we, we leave it for something else is, I have a note about, he very frequently says that, Like, every event is one he'll never forget. Like, he uses this so many times, it's like, Oh, walking into the stable, that was an evening I'd never forget. Talking to this lady, that was a time I'd never forget.

Going to this, that was a I was just like, is everything a time you'll never forget? Are you just saying you've got a really good memory? Like, come on. Come on. 

Ellie: Oh, okay. I didn't notice that either. [00:41:00] But I'll take your word for it. Yeah, I guess the only thing on language is that one random note that I have.

Is that as I was reading it, it really, uh, reminded me of Patrick Rothfuss's writing, which I guess means that she inspired him because, uh, like his, his writing is much more recent. I also have a tears cried tally for this book, I only cried once, but it was a two out of five impact at the end when Nosy Fitzs' his dog, truly dies.

Jen: I knew it was 

going to be about Nosy. 

Ellie: Uh, yeah, not, not the first time, not at the beginning of the book when Fitz just thinks that Burrich has killed his dog, but at the end when he truly 

Jen: Yeah, I can't say this, uh, brought me to tears at all, but I, I did appreciate Nosy. He was a very cute character. 

Ellie: And I guess a, a line from the book that we can use to segue.

From our general discussion [00:42:00] to our challenges, is this quote. And she took me slowly through an exercise that seemed infinitely complex then, but by the end of the week was no more difficult than braiding my horse's mane. For me, this description of when horses starting to teach, fits about martial arts and, and, um, swordplay and all this stuff really encapsulates training in any discipline for me, like it epitomizes my current experience of joining a regular gym for the first time, that the first time you're shown how to use the machine, you're like, Oh my God.

How am I supposed to use this torture device? Why is there ropes going off in every direction? What am I doing? And then by the end of the week, you're doing 10 reps of three sets. And while you're doing it, you're, you're thinking about the notes that you should be writing for your podcast. 

Jen: Yeah, definitely.

So I recently have been very injury prone. So, um, in the gym, I've gone [00:43:00] from trying to up my weights to lower weights, but more reps just to try and avoid me doing something stupid, which apparently I've been doing frequently and hurting myself. And I had this morning that I was doing squats and I was, I was, I was getting so frustrated cause it's like, Oh, the weight is so light and I can do these reps at no problem and I should, I want to be going higher, but I'm not going to, cause I'm trying to be safe.

And I'm like, I remember the time when, like, I could barely squat with a bar. And now I'm complaining that, like, oh, I don't get to test for a new PB next week. Okay. Yes. Things have changed. 

Ellie: Yeah. And I think that is something that a good training montage or section of a, of a book will really help. Like, make you feel and almost make you motivated to go out and do stuff yourself.

Jen: Yeah. It's, it's, it's just a nice way of thinking about how, how you learn. I feel like the first challenge that he comes across is the basic training and then he gets like [00:44:00] a basic kind of like, use the staff to fight and learn how to read and write and learn how to be a fancy person, learn to stand still while someone measures you for clothes.

It's a challenge for him. I feel like for us, fine. grand.

Ellie: Yes. Yes. We can, we can get through this. 

Jen: I've learned to write before. I can do it again. 

Ellie: Being measured for clothing would be partially triggering to like previous changing room experiences, but you know, we can get through all that. 

Jen: Grin and bear it.

Ellie: Exactly. Actually having something that fit you, like what was tailored to you, that might be amazing actually. That actually might be, that might be a bonus, that might be the opposite of a challenge. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: Is, is maybe, is maybe the first kind of tricky training when he begins to change and begins his assassin training.

Jen: Yeah, I think so. Like, he has a lot of things that he learns, but they're not really, like, challenges. Hmm. And even with Chade, it feels like a lot of [00:45:00] it is learning. Like, it starts with the, the challenges are the tasks he starts with, which is the thing of, like, go to the kitchen and get this person to give you such and such.

Or tell me what's, what, like, came in in the post today, uh, without actually anyone seeing you get it. Mm hmm. I don't remember in huge detail what they were, but he got loads of these little tasks that taught him how to interact with people on different levels and get the kind of information he needed.

Ellie: Yeah. Steal the scissors from the seamstress, but then put it back again without anybody noticing. And I will say that this is, um, like, this is a skill that I remember learning. Not the stealing the scissors and putting it back, but the, like, the talking to the kitchen staff. When I. Started waitressing when I started college, I had, I was such an introvert.

I was such an awkward person. I had zero social skills. I had to learn how to keep somebody talking and just smile and nod and learn about them and then take their food order. Yes. But like, I, I, I could, [00:46:00] uh, empathize with having to like learn how to just listen to people and smile and nod. 

Jen: Same. 

Ellie: I feel like it's a skill that more people should actually.

Jen: Yeah. 

I feel like it's something there's a lot of people who just like think you either naturally know how to do it or you don't. And I'm like, I spent my early twenties learning how to like talk to people, go into crowds, be comfortable with groups of people and go between conversations and stuff.

That's not a skill I innately had, like, and it's not something I learned in childhood. It's something I was like, I am an adult and this is something I need to be able to do. Yeah. So yes, as an adult, I could talk to the kitchen staff. As a, like, 12 year old, that he was, not a hope, but as an adult, yes. 

Ellie: Same, 

same.

And I guess all this, these small tasks culminate to the task he's set to steal from the king. 

Jen: Yes. 

Ellie: Would, would you steal from the king, Jen?

Jen: I mean, honestly, [00:47:00] probably, yeah. Like, I don't have an allegiance to a king. And also there's this whole level of like, how much is this a test to do what I've been told to do as opposed to a test of my loyalty, because.

I'd be thinking it's a different kind of test that I'd have to prove that I did, and so I'd fail that essentially, because I'd be like, I might not be too comfortable doing it, but okay. 

Ellie: I think Fitz's approach is the only way to somewhat pass both tests. In that you very obviously take an item off the table while staring the person down.

Yeah, I appreciated the dilemma there. I feel like if I had been in that position and been that age, I probably would have stolen from the king just to end my misery. Because it didn't seem like anything was going to happen, not happen, but like, it felt like in the book it kind of went on for so long that I feel like I would have [00:48:00] succumbed to the peer pressure if I had been 12 year old me.

Jen: Yeah, like same 12 year old me, it would just be like people keep saying it to you and I'd eventually, even if I didn't want to do it, probably would have done it because I'd convinced myself that I was wrong. But. The Survival of the Challenged is as if we would survive this now as old ladies and us old ladies.

I think both of us are of the mind that we'll do whatever we want, whether or not that involves stealing from the king is a personal choice. Thankfully, we don't live in a monarchy.

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: So, one of the bigger kind of like events that happened in the book was the adventure out to Forge for the first time, when they found the people who had been Forged, and they had to travel through the night on horses, get the horses onto a boat and then off the other side and then travel through darkness again and this huge like cross country adventure secret mission thing.

I would not be good at getting horses on and off a boat. Without a [00:49:00] dock. I could do it with a dock maybe. Couldn't do it with nothing. 

Ellie: I, I don't think anybody would be particularly good at getting horses on and off of a boat without a proper, yeah, dock or quay. Like that, that is another level of horsemanship.

It's like, 

Jen: did they have a crane? Uh, 

Ellie: and I think what I kind of appreciate about this adventure is that at some point, as Fitz is like narrating it, I think he acknowledges about the freedom of when there's somebody more senior in charge and you're just along for the ride and the kind of like the adrenaline that you can get from that because it's not your responsibility to keep you both alive.

You just have to like, Keep going and keep going and keep going. So yeah, like, the biggest thing he is tasked with is getting the horses on and off. Like, from the description of the boat, I think it was kind of barge ish, which meant it wasn't great for crossing the bay. But even with a [00:50:00] flat bottomed boat, do we both have the wit?

I think so. 

Jen: Oh, yeah. 

Ellie: If we put ourselves in that position, right? 

Jen: We'd 

have to. Yeah, we'd have to 

have the wit. Then 

probably do 

with 

the wit, depending on 

how, like.

Ellie: Yeah. Gently persuade the horses. 

Jen: Peer pressure them.

Ellie: A little bit. Gently, gently. My current level of horsemanship is not. High enough, like, if I had continued being as absorbed by horses as I was for my whole childhood and teenage years, if I'd been able to keep that up until now, maybe I'd be able to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, I still have the skill to force a horse on and off a boat in the world with us.

Jen: Okay, so the next thing. The next challenge is training in the skill. I think as an adult in that situation, I would tell Gallen to, I'm not going to curse, do something to himself, do something anatomically unlikely to himself and leave. He's going to walk around, like hitting you with a quirt all the time because he didn't like the way you looked.

You're like, [00:51:00] I'm not interested. Like, I don't care. 

Ellie: And it's a kind of, like, I definitely feel like this is one of the biggest challenges of the book, but it's a kind of bullying. That only works with people who are like, yeah, still children and teenagers. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: It is a very extreme approach to take. Yeah, if I was going into that right now, like as an adult, it's tricky because you would, you would want to gain the skill.

Of the skill. So do you try and, like, subterfuge and just don't give in? Or do you take the, take your, because he could just turn around and say, Oh yeah, nope, you don't have the, the willpower or whatever it is if you Tell him to, to go off. So, yeah, like how exactly would you battle this self worth battle?

Jen: Yeah, it's because, yeah, like realistically, if I was put in that [00:52:00] situation, I would leave because I don't want to be in that situation. But if I really wanted to learn the skill, I was like, well, I have to be in this situation to learn this skill. I could probably follow his rules. The only thing that's actually making me iffy about the rules is like, The weird food thing.

Weird food thing. I have problems with lots of foods. The weird food thing. Standing, staring somewhere, not talking to people. Sure. Whatever. I'll stand still and stare into space for three hours if I get magic powers from it. But like, I want a burger at the end of that. 

Ellie: I, I can see how Galen has reached this really twisted way of being like, the skill is, is like a drug.

You get a high from it. So you have to like, take all the happiness out of your life to stop yourself from, from being tempted. But yeah, God, there's, there's, there are better ways. There are better ways of learning that and managing that. And I'm really [00:53:00] curious, like, who's going to become the skill master next?

Because Galen is killed at the end by, Verity. Who just like drains them of his power, which is really like, I guess, yeah, another side of the skill is that like, it is this mind to mind kind of communication, but it's also this like, I guess maybe that's somewhere where the skill and the Wit like almost kind of touch is that they're both, uh, a way of seeing the like power and energy within somebody and the skill can like draw it from them, like by touch, like you can, you can drain them of their energy.

There's definitely something there. That is that, that, that kind of, I mean, like, can you see my, my cogs trying to turn in my brain right now? 

Jen: I mainly wonder with that as like, is it the skill or the wit that the Redship Raiders are using? Or is it a different thing? Because if it is this energy that the wit you can see, the skill you can manipulate, then are they just using a skill?[00:54:00] 

To remove this in like a certain level, it doesn't kill, but just removes all your humanness from you. 

Ellie: And you need to have both powers because in the Wit you can see your, with the Wit you can see yourself removing that specific energy and the skill is what allows you to remove it. Is it a blending of the two powers that the duchies have like prevented themselves from having because they're so against or like so terrified of the witch.

It's a kind of, it's a 50 50 one for me about the, the, the training, the skill, because there is that point as well where Galen beats him, but also manages to kind of inception insert this cloudiness. 

Jen: Used his skill.

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. Used the skill on him. Yeah. To make him believe that he is actually. Unskilled in the skill and I think after that had happened to me, I would also have eventually had to just concede defeat and just say that I, I think undermining somebody's belief in themselves like that, [00:55:00] I would fare no better than Fitz.

Jen: Yeah, I feel like no one would fare better. Like that's the point of the skill is that like it puts this in your head. And you believe it. And at some point you might learn that it's wrong, but like in the initial reaction to it, you are going to, that's what the skill is, like, so yeah, I think it's so context dependent on whether, you know, you decide it's not worth learning this thing and I'll do something else, or will I follow all the rules to do this thing?

But in the end, in the context of the book, we're all failing because we're all getting a skill thing put in our head saying that we're useless and we go, 

Oh, okay. Cool.

Ellie: I feel like if I had been kicked out of this class and I feel like I would have tried to use it a lot more myself outside of the class than I feel like Fitz ever did.

But 

Jen: would that be due to him being [00:56:00] skilled to think that he can't do it? 

Ellie: Hmm. 

Oh yeah, I guess probably. 

Yeah,

Jen: he uses the wit when he knows he shouldn't use the wit. So I don't think he would not use the skill if he thought he could use the skill. 

Ellie: Okay. Okay. Well, clearly we are unskilled in the skill currently because we are mentally almost going in a circle, but yes.

Okay. So our next challenge is. It's getting back from Forge after he's been dumped there. I was about to say what is convenient about old worldiness of many things, but actually this 100 percent applies to Ireland right now, is that all roads lead to the capital. If you try to get anywhere in Ireland right now, it always sends you through Dublin, if you're using public transport.

And when you're driving, if you try and go cross country, it is so painful that quite often I will drive. Halfway to Dublin and then go south down the country to get to where I [00:57:00] need. So. 

Jen: I don't have that problem myself. 

Ellie: Uh, oh no, your poor thing being in the heart, the metropolis. 

Jen: There is also the thing that pretty much every town in Ireland, regardless of size, has a Dublin road.

Ellie: Yes. Always. 

And an O'Connell street.

Jen: And an O'Connell street, 

yeah. I think the actual getting back from Forge isn't too much of a problem. Like the um, dealing with the Forged people on the way? 

Ellie: Yes. That's the actual, yeah. 

Jen: Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know how I'd do if I got ambushed by like three people.

Ellie: Well, like, curr-, like, recent vague injuries aside, I think both of us haven't gotten to running. So much in the last year or two. 

Jen: Probably could outrun them, actually. 

Ellie: Has given me a false sense of security in outrunning people and things. Certainly forged people, because they don't, like, while they want to eat.[00:58:00] 

They don't seem to, like, take care of themselves very well. Like, we especially get that kind of knowledge from Chades. Is it his journal? His kind of diary of what he's trying to, like, rehab this Forged person. They don't really take care of themselves beyond the minimum. 

Jen: In a real life situation where someone could just, like, sprint at me, probably not.

But if it was a case that I just had to go faster, then Someone like casually jogging, I could do that enough that I could get, you know, away from someone and then also just like keep it up consistently for long enough that I could get away from probably a Forged person. 

Ellie: Yes. Like Forged people, if, if we were to kind of use the zombie scale, they feel much closer to the shuffling end of zombie than the like 

Jen: Yes.

They're not 

like 28 days later kind. 

Ellie: Exactly. Of all scales to use.

Jen: Oh, it's 

a 

good scale. It's, it makes sense. 

Ellie: So yeah, no, I think, and especially. It is that they just seem to kind of like fixate on something of yours that they want. They don't, they, they will happily kill you. [00:59:00] But I don't think they approach you with the idea of killing you.

They approach you because they want your food or they want your cloak or they Yeah, well May, maybe killing, killing is like a, A part B to their plan, but their part A is normally so far, food, whatever, and they won't and they just don't mind the killing part. 

Jen: Yeah. I mean, it wouldn't make sense for 'em to actually come up and want to kill you because wanting to kill someone is a connection.

It's an emotional reaction. 

Ellie: Ooh. 

Jen: There's a reason for that. Like especially if like your intent isn't to eat the human, which they didn't seem to be cannibals. 

Ellie: No. 

Jen: They would have no reason to kill you. They just want your things. If it's easier to kill you to get your things, then sure. But like the actual killing doesn't, like, it, yeah, it doesn't make sense to me for a Forged person to intentionally seek someone out to kill them.

Ellie: That is that like line about you have to have an emotion to actually want to kill somebody. I had not. Considered that as a, but yeah, yeah, I think you're right. Okay. So I think we will, I think we will [01:00:00] survive getting back. 

Jen: Yeah. So the next one is in the mountain court, which I'm pretty sure it's not called the mountain court, but that's what we've been calling it.

So let's continue. And the future queen. This is an unknown challenge. The future queen takes, uh, Fitz out into a garden and starts accusing him of being an assassin. And he manages to charm her enough that she admits to her brother that she's tried to poison him. So, would we be able to get these people on our side enough?

That they believe us, really. 

Ellie: It's one of those moments where, like, so the, these mountain people are kind of portrayed as being like, quite harsh because their environment is so harsh. But it also, on the flip side, Like, makes it, like, she feels very sheltered, she feels very young, princessy, in that she was both taken in by Regal's plotting and scheming, but then is also so quick to kind [01:01:00] of listen to Fitz and, and realize that what she has been told by this one other person might not be the entire story.

So I feel like how quickly Sheaf is open to other ideas would be in our favor. Like, I think, I think this isn't hopefully too difficult. Maybe, maybe, maybe I'm underselling the princess. 

Jen: I don't know, maybe we're just kind of like open, just like open. Don't try and deceive her. I mean, I would be a terrible assassin because I'd just be like, yeah, I got told to come here to kill you, but like Regal's just said this thing that why would I kill you now?

Which you have to work up to that conversation. You can't just walk in with that conversation. 

Ellie: Yes. Yeah. But yeah, but basically this whole kind of conversation around, can we charm the Queen or the Queen to be and Prince, uh, Rushk. I was actually quite surprised when it turned out that Regal had indeed poisoned the wine, not trusting Fitz to, to, to do his [01:02:00] job.

And so still managing to frame Fitz for killing. Um, I, I, I was, um, Like, I didn't see that coming. I guess I was, at that point, I was kind of just enjoying the book and being like, Ah, yeah, cool, that's gonna happen. And, um, so I was expecting more, I guess, plotting and banter between those three characters.

Like, we just got them all in a room and then suddenly one of them dies and I was like, Oh, oh God. 

Jen: Found it a little weird that they still went through the whole, like, Wine drinking thing, because like, if I was like, Oh, I got this poison to poison your wine. Let's maybe not have wine of any, let's, let's sit down, dehydrated and converse.

Ellie: Yes. Yes. But unfortunately, Prince Rursk does die and we ingest enough of the poison to be very uncontrolled of our limbs, and eventually 

Jen: [01:03:00] Also happens with too much wine. 

Ellie: Oh, that is very true.

But our, what we have listed as our final challenge is The decision with Regal. Would you kill the prince if you're up there and you see him? You're, you're far away from your own court, and he is clearly plotting against your court. Would you kill the prince, Jen? 

Jen: Um, I mean, I'll be honest. I put this on the list to mean would you kill the other prince, but would I kill Regal?

Ellie: Oh, okay. So, so we, we've read our notes completely differently. Interesting. I have read your notes differently, to be very honest. 

Jen: Um, would I kill Regal? I probably wouldn't kill him. There's too much riding on it. Like as much as he set you up and all this stuff, he's third in line to the throne and he's also the King's favorite.

It's too dangerous and it's too well known why I'm [01:04:00] there. So I wouldn't. Avoid killing him from any form of loyalty or anything like that, I would avoid, I wouldn't kill him because I would expect to get killed in turn very quickly. 

Ellie: Okay. And then to ask you the question as you intended it, would you follow Regal's order to kill Prince Rursk.

Jen: No. Hmm. It's too much of a setup. 

Ellie: Yeah. Same. 

Jen: Like if there's little bits in it that you're kind of like, Oh, I feel like if there's a few things that didn't line up, then maybe, but the amount of things that was so obvious that he was trying to get you killed, there is like, as Fitz sees, this is a no win situation.

Like, 

Ellie: yes, same. Especially when, um, when Regal clearly doesn't know that Lady Ti like knows that Lady Thyme . Is the assassin. 

Mm. 

Jen: But that she's not Chade. 

Ellie: Yeah. Exactly. When he doesn't, when he isn't trusted that far down the, the, the, the [01:05:00] order, you're like, okay, no. No, I don't trust you at all.

Like, I never, I didn't like you as a character anyway, but now I know that you're not actually in the inner circle either. So. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: Yes. I, I would have gotten the same route as Fitz. I wouldn't have killed Prince Rusk. In, in all the palava afterwards, would I have killed Regal? Yeah, I guess not, because yeah, you're right, like he is the king's favorite, but I feel like I was closer to killing Regal than you were.

Jen: Probably. Yes. 

Ellie: Yes. Yes. So Jen, will we survive Assassin's Apprentice? 

Jen: I think so. I feel like we would survive this book. 

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. Like, not to be too cocky, but if a 13 year old can survive. Yeah. I think we can too. 

Jen: We are, I was gonna say it, we're definitely at least taller than a 13 year old, but like, not 13 year old, some 13 year old boys are really tall.

We're probably taller than a 13 year old, therefore, yes, we would live. Yeah, we'd [01:06:00] survive this. We'll see how it goes further in the series, but um, Assassin's Apprentice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We are acing that apprenticeship. 

Ellie: Early years. We're good. Cool. 

Jen: Well, thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and you can find us on Instagram at ifwesurvivethis.

We're also on threads. Let us know of any books you'd like us to review. 

Ellie: And our next episode will be The House of Earth and Blood, aka Crescent City Book 1 by Sarah J Maas. 

Jen: See you then. 

Ellie: Bye. Bye.