Monstrous Regiment

 It's all in the socks!

 Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett is a classic Discworld novel, exploring gender, societal expectation and... socks? We follow Polly Perks, who cuts her hair, finds a pair of trousers and goes off to war. She's only trying to find her brother, but she finds a lot more along the way.

 Jen and Ellie discuss the world and dive into theme, satire and the innumerable parallels the book pulls to reality.

 Upon my oath I am not an argumentative man! ⚔️

Transcript

IWST_Episode_7_MonstrousRegiment
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Jen: [00:00:00] Hi and welcome to If We Survive This, a podcast where we read fantasy books and discuss how likely we'd be to survive the challenges in them. A quick warning that this podcast is filled with spoilers for all aspects of the book. I'm Jen, the slightly more bookish side of the podcast, though I do have some fitness credentials.

Ellie: And I'm Ellie. 

I could survive in the wild for weeks as long as I have a good audiobook. 

Jen: Today we're discussing Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett. Let's see if we survive this. Polly could off her hair, found a pair of trousers and went to war. A citizen of Borogravia Polly lives in a strict society that forbids well most things thanks to the abomination sent by their God Nuggan, one of which being women aren't allowed to join the army.

Polly, posing as Oliver, no longer believes in any of these rules and is attempting to find her brother Paul, a kind man who isn't so bright, who's the only one who can inherit their family pub. Without Paul's safe return, Polly will be destitute. Polly, now Private Oliver [00:01:00] Ozzer Perks, signs up under Sergeant Jackrum, an almost mythical figure in the Borogravian army, and sets off to war with the rest of her company.

Corporal Strappi and the privates Wazzer, Tonker, Lofty Shufti. Maladict, a vampire, Carborundum, a troll, and an Igor. On the first night as Ozzer, Perks finds herself talking to an unknown person in the latrine who's noticed that she's a woman, and recommends using a pair of socks to fill in for the expected appendage.

Things swiftly snowball. The company reach the training barracks, only to find themselves under the command of Lieutenant Blouse and ordered to the front with no training and little equipment. As they try to come to grips, their recruitment agent, Corporal Strappi, disappears and an enemy patrol finds them.

Perks disguises herself as a woman and incapacitates their commander, only to find that the rest of the company has successfully taken on the rest of their troops. At this moment, the Ankh Morpork newspaper stumbles on them and makes it headline news. As they travel on, the company's identities are [00:02:00] revealed.

All the privates are girls. Three of them escaped the workhouses, with Wazzer convinced she speaks to the Duchess, the quasi deity of Borogravia. She is the long reigning sovereign of the state, who for all the public knows, might actually have been dead for years. As they go in search of the main army, the troop quickly realise they might in fact be the last Borogravian company at large.

They realise that the main keep is surrounded, and Lieutenant Blouse has the ingenious plan to dress up as washerwoman to infiltrate it. Blouse goes alone, the only man dressed as a woman, and is soon followed by the company of girls dressed like boys dressed like girls. After a failed infiltration, they are imprisoned, but not how they'd expect.

Ankh Morpork is on the side of the plucky underdogs, and this gives them surprising negotiating power. They are eventually brought to the commanders of the Borogravian army for a court martial of sorts, only to have Sergeant Jackrum appear, Banish a number from the room and reveal that nearly a third of the High Command are in fact only pretending to be men.

Even Sergeant Jackrum is. Wazzer has a religious [00:03:00] experience with the Duchess speaking through her, ordering the army to call the truce and return home to finally tend to its people. Perks returns home a hero, Only to be pulled back into the war again sometime later, but she returns with knowledge of how to stop it all.

What did you think of Monstrous Regiment? 

Ellie: I really, really enjoyed Monstrous Regiment. So it's no secret that I love Terry Pratchett, but it was surprising to realize that there was a book of his that I hadn't yet read. Because I've been working through the Discworld series for, for years, and in my head, I'd read them all.

So, it was a really, really fun surprise to find a book that I hadn't read. And, I listened to this as an audiobook, and I laughed out loud several times. So, yeah. No, I, I really liked it. How'd you find it? 

Jen: I, like, I, I think Pratchett is fantastic, and I've read Montrous Regiment probably about seven times at this point, uh, so.

I loved it. It's in my, like, kind of [00:04:00] cozy Discworld reread, like, rotation, and yeah, thought it was fantastic. I love the way that there's so much, uh, There's so much depth to the writing while it also being like lighthearted satire at points. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: Like it goes into these huge socio political stuff while also making so many like dumb sex jokes and kicking people in the socks and all this kind of stuff.

And it's like, that is a really . dumb joke, but at the same time, that was fantastic. 

Ellie: Because I read my first Pratchett books when I was 12, maybe 13, and I loved them then. Like, the, the jokes worked for me then when, when all of, yeah, I'm going to say all of the satire went over my head. Like, I, I, I loved reading back then, but that wasn't really, satire wasn't something that I'd approached as a 12 year old and so each time I come back to a different part of this world and read it again, it's been like a whole new experience of being like, Oh my God, I did not see this whole undercurrent of this [00:05:00] joke or, or, or, or this kind of viewpoint or, or, or political belief or, or, or whatever.

Which is such an incredible, incredible skill that Pratchett had. 

Jen: Yeah, I remember when I, um, so I, I read like, I read a handful of the, the Discworld books when I was a teenager. And then I think I read the majority of them when I was like in my older teens. And there were still a lot of references that went over my head, especially on things like, uh, books like Soul Music.

There was all these like band names I didn't even know I wasn't getting the reference. And then reading them again, like a couple of years later being like, Oh, that's what that is. Great. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: I kind of feel like Monstrous Regiment is one of the most standalone Discworld books. So it does have characters from other series, but they're not like the main characters and they're not too integral to what happens.

It's, it's like the book that I recommend if somebody's trying to find an entry point to whether or not they like it, I'd usually say to go for Monstrous Regiment. 

Ellie: Okay, I think that's a [00:06:00] really good recommendation. I think, so, I have just read Small Gods, and I recently read Moving Pictures, and I would say that they, to me, feel more standalone than Monstrous Regiment did.

But this is a much, I like this book, like Monstrous Regiment, was a lot more fun for me. I don't know if it was just the style of it or something, but as an entry point, if you haven't done any Pratchett, I think it's great. Um, yes, I definitely agree with that because I wouldn't necessarily always recommend being like, Oh yeah, you just start with book one and you work your way through.

Jen: Never do that with Discworld, it is a bad idea. 

Ellie: That is actually what I did last year. 

Jen: Oh. 

Ellie: Well, I've read like I've read so many and then last year, well actually, so last year I started off and I did all of the watch books and then I was like, okay, now I'm going to go back and do Color of Magic, Light Fantastic and work my way through again, skipping the watch books thing as I literally just done them.

So it was interesting. [00:07:00] I like not to go too far off Monstrous Regiment just, just for one, just for one second. I'll say that I. Liked the first two books more this time than I had, like, I read those when I was 12 and then I read them again when I was like 20 and I was like, ugh, no, like, these are definitely the worst ones.

And like, while they might be, they're not as bad as I remember. But anyway, Monstrous Regiment is a fantastic, I think, starting point for Terry Pratchett if you have, if you've somehow, somehow escaped his writing all these years. 

Jen: One of the things I really like about this one is the main story is very grounded.

In like human things and things that you would see in your everyday life, see on the news, see like down the street. And there are some fantastical elements within it, which if you're not coming into, like Discworld books have so many different like species and so many different interplays and things.

And if you're coming into it trying to like automatically understand, understand the like complexity of the dwarf society, you're [00:08:00] probably going to have a hard time. But with Monstrous Regiment, they are like really grounded human things. There also happens to be a vampire, a troll and an Igor.

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's so true. It's like, as opposed to them kind of being otherworldly, it's almost just like, it feels like a very natural. Or like realistic? Yeah, is it like a fantasy realism? That's not, that's not the right phrasing. But like Pratchett has this skill of including all of these kind of fantastical fantasy famous creatures and making them so incredibly human.

I guess that's what I'm trying to say. 

Jen: None of the creatures in the Pratchett books ever feel two dimensional. They're not throwaways because you needed an other. You needed like a difference. They're all well rounded, um, characters. They all have like their own societies. The societies get built out more in like different dedicated [00:09:00] books, but you always get the sense that there is more going on with them than you do know.

And I feel like that's one of the, The things that really adds to the Discworld books, like say, probably going to have people hate me for saying this, but take something like Tolkien and you have like the orcs, it's like the orcs are just the orcs and they're, they're there to attack people and do what the baddies say.

Whereas in this, it's like, well, there's trolls. And everyone thinks the trolls are stupid, but it's actually because their brains work in a different kind of way. And there's a whole explanation of trollish society and language. And there's a whole series of books on how they're misunderstood and how they actually have a different thing going on.

And they're not caricatures that they often are in fantasy books. And it's like, no, these These, they're not people, but they're real people. 

Ellie: Yeah. I think that this, the, the Monstrous Regiment, while it's a standalone, it is most closely aligned to the watch books of Ankh Morpork. If I had to pick a sub world of Discworlds that I put this closest to, it would probably be the other [00:10:00] watch books.

Jen: I'd agree.

Ellie: And I think Pratchett took the kind of core elements of the Watch, where it's like, once you're a Watchman, you're a Watchman. You're not an Igor, you're not a girl, you're not a whatever, you're a Watchman. Um, and that kind of, I guess, almost like found family element or, or kind of connected.

Elements of the, of the watch that runs through Ankh Morpork, but because he's already established Ankh Morpork as somewhere that is way more liberal than a lot of the other surrounding nations, to kind of create or maybe follow some of the questions that he would like to explore or some of the jokes he'd like to make, he kind of took that idea of the watch and put it in a different country to play with.

Gender roles, patriarchy, in a, in a different setting. 

Jen: I feel in the Watch books, the idea of everyone, once you put on a badge, becoming a Watchman is intended as kind of a leveller and an inclusive thing. That you [00:11:00] can be who you are outside of work, and when you come here, we are all the same, and we are all doing things, and we're in it together.

And then when you put that kind of story into this world, and you add the secrets that they have to have for this to work, you have an entire different dimension. And it is looking at how something that in one setting can be inclusive and empowering might not be the same in a different setting. So, Once you're a soldier for Borogravia, you're always a soldier for Borogravia.

But to become a soldier, you have to lie. And then as a soldier, you have to pretend to be one. Like a huge, um, theme in this is, well, a huge theme is gender. But you see the, um, you see the girls pretending to be men and being more manly than the men might be. So, um, Like, an over performance of masculinity and violence.

And you see that throughout, like, as you find out more and more people in the army are actually women [00:12:00] pretending to be men. And that people who are responsible for the entire war, you kind of initially are like, oh, it's this whole like, men killing men, masculine, blah, blah, blah. And it's actually women who are doing the same, if not worse.

And it's seeing how that we are all one. can on, on one hand in Ankh Morpork be empowering, but on the other hand in Borogravia be completely destructive because it is the erasure of individual identity and it's like everyone trying to push the status quo up to like, up the ante all the time. 

Ellie: And yet again, Jen says a big sentence that my little brain has to be like, ah, yeah.

Jen: So in like most of the previous episodes, I've spent a long time just like nitpicking on plot, whereas this is going to be totally different. And I just want to like talk about the themes of this book and the socio political whatnot stuff that's going on because Pratchett does everything so well that what you get to is the message of the book.

You know, 

like 

[00:13:00] sure there's some childish jokes, but the childish jokes work and it works in context. So let's talk about why we made a childish joke about socks as opposed to complaining that we're talking about socks. 

Ellie: And like the socks worked so well as a running joke through the whole thing. It never once felt like, yeah, oh, I love them so much.

Jen: I especially adore the moment when, um, Polly is trying to help Lieutenant Blouse onto his horse and the horse is like not having any of it and attacks Polly and she's like, Oh, this is fine. It just snapped at me. But Blouse is about to like pass out because the horse has bitten Polly on the socks, which if she had had items there would have caused problems.

Um, but she's just like, Oh, it's just, Oh wait, I mean, Oh no, it's 

so sore. 

Ellie: Yeah, exactly. It was the like, Ooh. Ah, yes, this is bad. Oh, no. [00:14:00] That had me laughing. So hard. I guess, I guess also cause the, the, the audio book I listened to narrated that bit particularly well, it was one of those audio books that like, I had a whole day of like housework and life admin that I was like, cool, it's an audio book day.

And several times I found myself just kind of like staring into the middle distance, washing up liquid up to my elbows, just staring at the wall, laughing. And then I'd snap back to reality and be like, you look like a crazy person right now, continue doing your task. But yes, anyway, Jen, gender roles, patriarchy, big themes, hit me with your, uh, fantastic literary criticism knowledge.

Jen: Oh. 

Ellie: Only if you want to. 

Jen: Okay. I'm trying to think of which one to start with.

Ellie: Mm hmm. 

Jen: So one of the things that I feel stands out hugely in this book is the influence of media [00:15:00] in, um, geopolitical international affairs. So in the book, William DeWord, the reporter, takes this picture of, uh, The Monstrous Regiment and posts it in their newspaper and they become a hit back home because everyone in Ankh Morpork loves an underdog and they want to rally behind the underdog.

And suddenly everybody cares about what Borogravia does. Up until this point, Borogravia was just this like annoying little country that was always at war. And now everyone is on Borogravia's side. So the like political institution of Ankh Morpork has to kind of do a huge shift in what they're planning to do.

They had been backing. Prince Heinrich, who is one of the neighboring states, and now they can't really do that, at least not too much. And it's something that, like, continues on is that the amount of media focus that this one regiment is getting, and they're the only regiment who are left in Borogravia.

Everyone else is, like, dug in in the Kneck Valley at this, like, stalemate of a battle, and then you have this small group of people. [00:16:00] And the amount of disproportional influence that they get due to that media attention is unbelievable. And it's also something that just happens in real life. Like anytime you see atrocities on the news, you see horrible things happening.

And a lot of it kind of slides under the radar until there's one person we have a personal story about. Or one, one family we have a personal story about. And then people start caring, like, not even necessarily international, um, conflicts, but if there's, um, violent problems in your own city, if there's like homelessness issues, all of this kind of stuff, if the media can find one person to give that focus to, then people start caring.

But like, realistically, people should have always cared, but there's only so much you can care about. But this, like. Kind of the media being able to choose who gets the focus, who gets that attention and who gets that power is, uh, I just, I find it absolutely fascinating the way that it's, it was like woven into this book and [00:17:00] it's so simple and you don't actually see so much of it even happening until suddenly they're the ones who are in the negotiating room.

They shouldn't really be there, but they are there and they're the ones that all like they're holding all the cards because The big world superpower, all their people really like these guys because they're in the newspaper. 

Ellie: And it's something that like, I'm trying to actually remember when was this book published?

It must've been a while ago. Like it's, it's certainly, let's say at least 20 years ago, right? 

Jen: Um, 2003. 

Ellie: Oh my God. That's 21 years ago. Look at me. Um, like at, at that point there was no, you know, Social media and the way we have it now, like Pratchett was writing about things that definitely existed in, in the current, uh, like media outlets then, but is like even more, not, not more applicable.

Yeah, I guess more applicable and so relevant to now. To how, like our media outlet or our media consumption has completely changed. And it is, but the message [00:18:00] in the book, in the book, it's like very subtle, as you said, but it's so reflective of how, because like when you're scrolling, you're like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like without that personal connection, without that. Yeah, underdog or scrappy, so and so, or inspiring, whatever, um, you don't get drawn in, which is horrible, but yeah, true. 

Jen: One of the themes, um, there's so many themes that I want to talk about, so I'm just, I'm just gonna skip around. Uh, one of the themes that is.

Quite well. One of the themes that's integral to this book is religion. And that's something that Pratchett has looked at multiple times throughout Discworld in lots of different forms. Um, one of his core tenants in the Discworld, world is that belief creates god's as opposed to God's creating belief. And what we have in this book is we have like cruelty of the actual deity.

Nuggan. That people, like, people have stopped actually worshipping Nuggan and they have started [00:19:00] just being afraid of the abominations. There's no faith or belief left there. There's only the fear of retribution. And because it's a religion that's so ingrained into their society, no one really seems to notice that they're not actually worshipping the god anymore.

That they're just Worshipping the rules, really. And everyone turns to the Duchess as their saviour. Because, you know, rulers of countries are often considered to be, um, chosen by the gods. And people would not necessarily pray to them, but would reference them in like, I hope this person's such and such, that whoever will fix it for me.

And this turns it into prayers go to the Duchess because the Duchess is kinder and is hopefully the one who can fix everyone for us. And there's this huge interplay with the, the, um, gender roles of the society because all of the horrible things that people are, like the horrible rules that people are living under are all due to the abominations of Nuggan.

So, a lot of the [00:20:00] characters, Like, Polly in particular is very anti religion, but Wazzer comes along with this, like, whole different concept of religion, and it comes into this big thing of, like, what is a god, who's worth believing in, what that kind of, like, interplay between your, like, real life and these things that are happening are.

Like, there's just, it's so integral to their society, to each person. Even if you don't believe in it, does that mean that it's not true and it can't affect you? And if you do believe in it, does that mean that it can affect you? Who really knows? And yeah, I just, I really love that it was explored in such like a practical.

way of people who interacted with the religion as opposed to, like, Small Gods is all about a god and the formation of religion. And I think it's, it's a great like message and everything, but it's kind of a very, like, it's a case study of this thing. Whereas Monstrous Regiment is, these are people, especially people in a role where you would frequently Reference gods, you know, soldiers prayers, that kind of thing.

Everyone, like, no one's an atheist on a battlefield kind of [00:21:00] thing. And where does that actually come to in restrictive religions, in religions where the rules that you're forced to follow have done horrible things specifically to you? Yeah. 

Ellie: And it really does become a, a, a two religion society without people seeing it that way.

Because yeah, they believe in Nuggan out of fear of the abominations of the rules, but they believe in the Duchess in hope. And it's kind of through that kind of belief in prayer, like at the end, the Duchess is, uh, I guess speaks through, uh, Wazzer. And, but she kind of, she says at one point how, how painful or how hard it was for her to be hearing all these prayers and not being able to do anything about it.

Um, like. Like, like, why are you praying to me? Like, I, I am and I'm not a god. Even though that was probably the, the, the birth of her becoming one in, in the kind of Pratchett way of thinking of, of belief creates god as opposed to god creating belief. 

Jen: I would argue that it's not actually a two religion society.

Because [00:22:00] people do not believe in Nuggan. If people believed in Nuggan, he wouldn't be dead. And it's specifically called out that Nuggan is dead and the new abominations are just echoes. 

Ellie: Oh, yes. Oh, I've forgotten that bit. Yeah, you're right. Yes. Thank you for that 

The movement 

Jen: between, you find it in religions in like our society, like how many people have read the holy texts?

How many people know what the actual religion stands for versus are using the religion for the rules that they've like cherry picked from it? Yeah. Essentially. 

Ellie: Yes. And having, uh, us both grown up in what would have been quite a Catholic society, I also kind of, like, I enjoyed the way, like, religion is written about by Pratchett.

Like, there's just kind of some, like, it's not quite jokes, but it makes me chuckle at our silliness of belief, you know, I guess because I see my lived experience reflected in what he writes. In the, like, the Sacred Heart, like, the Jesus painting, picture, um, being up [00:23:00] in, like, every room when I was a child, and, like, if I went to a house and they had the kind of, like, 3D statue version, the more grotesque and terrifying that statue thing was, the more devout the household was.

Like, yeah, the more realistic that heart looked like it was falling out of Jesus's chest. 

Jen: Yeah. And also one of the things that I really liked in this is the inclusion and exploration of the workhouses, which in Ireland, um, for a very long time, there is these things called Magdalene laundries or more generally known as refuges.

But they're essentially workhouses where the wrong kind of woman was put in for basically servitude for a long amount of time. Sometimes it was until they had a baby that was then like given away or left to die and like they were beaten, they were worked really hard, there's. Like it was horri, like horrendous.

It was absolutely horrendous. And just to horrify everyone, they only closed in like 94 or something like that. But the Workhouses in [00:24:00] Borogravia are such like a one-to-one comparison to that kind of thing. The wrong kind of girls. The girls who like did not fall into the way society wanted them to be.

Were put into these places and just beaten and, uh. Horrible things happen to them. And there's even this call out, Polly's talking to Tonker. Tonker had been in the workhouse and Polly, like, lived in the same village, but she was in a much like higher place in society, even though she was still, you know, in a low, the rung of society.

And they're talking about, uh, this priest who is there. And Polly feels like, oh, we finally got some common ground. We can like say a thing. And Polly says, That like, oh, I know that's priest. A bit pompous, but he seemed okay. Yes, said Tonker. He was good at seeming. And it's such a simple line. It's such a simple way of saying it.

And it just says so much about, like, who the priest was, what way he acted in public versus private, the ways that Tonker saw him and knew his actual Like what he was really like in the workhouses. Fantastic. Fantastic writing. [00:25:00] 

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Whoa. Oh God. Yes. And like, exactly. Like this is such a easy to read or easy to listen to laugh out loud book.

And here we are talking about such heavy topics. Like it threads that line so beautifully. Wow. 

Jen: I feel like there's, I feel like this is like a natural thing that happens when you build real and complex worlds. One of the things I really like about this book and a lot of his books is there are these heavy topics.

There are these big things, but they're not always the story. Sometimes they're their story, but just as in everyone's life. Like reality doesn't revolve around the biggest atrocity that's in their like city or like the worst thing that ever happened to them. These are parts of the world. These are facets of people's identity and their history, but they don't always need to be the core item.

But they hugely influence what's going on and yeah, these books being able to bring that in while still having the fun story, even the fun story [00:26:00] of like a regiment of troops going to save their nation and all this kind of stuff, like it's not a walk in the park kind of story. It was always going to end in people will be dying, there will be fights, all this horrible stuff will be happening.

And it's still like, this is a nice romp through the countryside. We're all going to die. 

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah, it really is. I, so I was just remembering a moment I had, I think I had just finished the book and I guess it kind of ties into all this kind of chat about gender and everything, was that I had just taken down all of my laundry and then I looked over at the laundry basket that was still full and I had the thought that was, it must have been a man who wrote the phrase There are two things certain in the world, death and taxes, because any woman out there would tell you that laundry is one of them.

Jen: Yeah, laundry and dishes. 

Ellie: Yeah. And then I was like, Oh my God, Pratchett doesn't influence me. Like, that was a pure Pratchett [00:27:00] thought. Like, whatever way it came formed in my head was as if I was reading it. Off of the page. And I was like, was it actually my own thought? Am I just remembering something that Pratchett wrote somewhere else that's just like bubbled up to the surface?

Um, it was just, yeah, it was quite a funny moment. I was like, Oh, I don't just need to read a Pratchett book before I try to write anything in future and I'll just suddenly be infinitely wittier. I don't know, but yeah, that's what I was just, uh, yeah, remembering. 

Jen: Yeah. That's, it's one of the things that I like about, um, one of the many things I like about Pratchett, he does take a lot of those kind of like common phrases.

And then just like looks at them from a very slightly different angle. And it's like, no one who's ever been in X situation would ever say that. And then goes into it in a kind of like joke explanation and you're suddenly wondering, wait, that's a phrase that we use in our day to day. Of course. Why have we never thought of it that way?

Ellie: Yeah, I feel like you're either a huge fan of his language of how he writes this way or you're not. It's not quite as strong as saying it's a Marmite [00:28:00] ish style, but people I think who read it and like it are big fans. And then other people are kind of like, eh, it wasn't really for me. It just doesn't click.

Um, to which I say, Shame, go try another book. 

Jen: Yeah, he has a very distinctive voice. Um, which is great, if you like it, if you don't, oh well. This is kind of going back to my original point on, you know, who, on women pretending to be men and as part of the unit pushing themselves forward. But in the context of, uh, okay, I feel like this book does a lot of who you pretend to be becoming who you are.

And one of the really telling jokes in it is, so towards the end, they're all talking about this song that. their regiment is, uh, named after. Like it's, they're the cheesemongers. And why are we called that? Well, it's this song about this guy stealing a maiden's cheese. And at this point, everyone has been, everyone has been the soldier.

They've admitted, like, everyone now knows that everyone is a woman, including Jackrum knows that his, his [00:29:00] regiment are all women. They're having a conversation on it. And, uh, basically there's a kind of, uh, a rape joke in it? So the quote is, it was her own fault. She should have been able to tie up her own garter, said Lofty.

Yeah, probably wanted her cheese stolen, said Tonker. And in the context, it's, it's a joke about sexual assault from like the phrasing, the way that it's formed, the way that it's put there. And it's a really almost like throwaway line that they're just like, haha, talking about this silly song, but it's who.

It's them being who they're expected to be. This is like the soldier joke response to it. Might not be a hundred percent down the line of like where you'd expect like a herd or burly whatever thing to say, but they're still ending into this spot where they're starting to see women as lesser and it very quickly in the book they keep talking, uh, saying things about like I had this thought and that was the socks talking.

Uh, a woman is always missing a man, what a woman needs is a pair of trousers, so then a [00:30:00] woman doesn't have to be a woman anymore. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: And it very, like, it starts slow at first, but it does grow more and more that the characters, even though they're women, they don't see themselves as women and they start seeing women as lesser because in their society, Women are lesser.

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: And it, oh, it's just, it's fascinating how it comes around, you know? 

Ellie: Yeah. Oh, it's, it's, it's really well done. And yeah, exactly. That line of like, that was like the socks talking or like the socks, half of my brain is like, I need to just like start shouting now. And the other half is like thinking of a different approach almost.

And yeah, how it's like after a while, like they're enjoying the, like they have found this freedom in pretending to be men, but aren't doing anything to. To change how women are kind of, yeah, like perceived, treated, whatever, like in Borogravia. Um, they're kind of falling into the, the traditions that they've grown up with.

And I think it's actually only at the very, very end of the book [00:31:00] when they're recognized as the first women soldiers and they're accepted in that role and they're given skirts instead of trousers. And there's this really like, like Polly feels herself becoming a mascot as opposed to a soldier. And she, as she travels home and she's like, have I, have I just kind of lost everything I gained?

Like there's this kind of questioning. And, but then she's home for a while, she's doing like back into regular life and feeling how much smaller that world is. And then she kind of gets the call or, or sees the notice and it's like, okay, I have to go back. And there's that decision of. Do I go back in trousers or in the skirt?

How, how am I going, like, am I going to try and change things? And she goes back in the skirt, as far as I'm, as far as I'm remembering right.

Jen: She goes back in the skirt and one of the first people she meets who's going to sign up is a woman pretending to be a man. And she's like, you know what, if you want to pretend, that's [00:32:00] totally fine.

We'll take you either way. 

Ellie: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Especially because so many of the higher in command have been pretending to be men. For so long, the idea of being seen as a woman again is just, just impossible. Like it, like they, they would no longer be them in their, in their eyes and minds and hearts.

And it's that kind of, I guess, yeah, while Polly is not the first woman in the army, she is the first woman in the army. 

Jen: It's like taking Not Like Other Girls to an absurd extreme. Because like, one of the things that I. When I was younger, I hated female characters generally in books. They were usually awful.

And as I got older, I realized that it's not that I hate female characters. It's not that I hate women. It's that I hate women written by men to be lesser. And once you start reading like well rounded women, usually written by women, you're like, Oh, women are, are real people. They can do [00:33:00] things there. They have like personal lives.

They have depth. They have all of this. But if you are. only exposed to these concepts that a woman cannot be a full person, then you kind of automatically say that I'm not one of them. So I must be different because if I'll, like, if every woman is an idiot and I'm smart, I'm not like other women. So I'll pretend to be a man because I'm one of the smart ones, but it's just me being the smart one and all the women are the same.

Stupid. You know, it's, it's this kind of, when you stick out from a societal, like, formula that you believe in, and you do think has to be the truth, but you find you're an exception in some way, we regularly don't question the societal, Um, like the tradition or the society we're in, we decide that we have to be in a, we're, we were put in the wrong box, but the boxes are accurate.

We're just the, the odd one out.

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. We, we are different. Not that society is wrong. 

Jen: Yes. And I like, there's so much of that in this book and you see them like leaning into it harder and harder. And it was [00:34:00] such a big deal for Polly to say like, I am a woman. Because women can do this. I don't have to pretend to be a man.

All women are capable of this. But that's not to say that she isn't responsible for a huge amount of the things that go wrong as well. You know, she's not perfect. Uh, but yeah, she is definitely like, she's the first woman in the army that's trying to push them to see that women should be in the army as opposed to all of us are exceptional circumstances and there is still something wrong with women.

Ellie: Mm hmm. Yeah. 

Jen: One of the things we also see with, um, The strict traditions that they have in this society is people like Paul are negatively impacted as well. Like there's always this concept that, you know, sexism, patriarchy only affects women. But Paul is like gentle giant. He's not too bright. He's a very like simple lad.

He just wants to look at the pretty birds and draw pictures and he'll be happy. But he was told that he was a son of Borogravia and had to fight for the country and he gets dragged into the war. And he's probably the least suitable character [00:35:00] we meet the entire time to being a soldier, and he's the only one who was forced to be a soldier.

Ellie: Oh, I hadn't even made that connection, but you're so right. And like, he meets all the, the physical requirements, like he is male, but he's also like, Uh, like written to be like, big strapping young lad who can carry a barrel on his shoulder kind of thing, like, yeah, traditionally, statistically, he should be the perfect warrior, and yet, yeah, like, he's the one who knows all the, all the bird calls, and can tell you what kind of finches, or like if that's a coal tit, or whatever is sitting outside your window, um, and Polly has to go rescue him from this war, not, like, out of love and also so that, as her father has basically told her, like, Paul will be the one that inherits the pub, um, but she will be the one who runs it.

And it's, it's so, like, interesting how, like, her father tells her that. So there is an acknowledgment that, like, women are smart, but only, only as long as there's the man there. Like, she can only do [00:36:00] this with her brother, who will just be, like, helping her stack the barrels and, and, like, I guess, run the place, like, do the chores for her, but her intelligence, intelligence can't be recognized on its own.

Jen: Mm. Yeah, and it ties in so well into, like, the individual versus the collective for this. We see that individual people. Um, in this world are, they're normal people, they're sensible. Not only was like Polly's dad taught her all like the bookkeeping and how to run the pub, but also there were old soldiers who taught her how to fight and explained a lot of things to her.

And on like a personal level, most people had one understanding, but then on a like country level, they had another. And it's brought up at one point by Vimes later in the book that he's saying. Borogravia, on a political level, is this ridiculous warmonger that only exports violence. It does nothing else.

But, of all the Borogravian people [00:37:00] that he's met, they all just seem like normal, reasonable people. So, why is there this disconnect? And what can we do to bring Borogravia, the people, to be like Borogravia, the state, you know, like bring them closer together. And it's something that comes up when the Duchess is talking through Wazzer and she's saying that they need to like invade their own country.

Borogravia, the entity, has forgotten of Borogravia, its people, and is waging a war against them. On the hardship, like on its own hardship and it needs to like do an internal reflection. But the internal reflection of Borogravia is also the internal reflection of the people of Borogravia to look at the rules they do and don't follow and all this stuff.

And it's just so great. So many parallels. 

Ellie: So many. So many. Yeah. 

Jen: And I just, I just want to call out like one quote from what the Duchess says, and it's revenge is not redress. Revenge is a wheel and it turns backwards. The dead are not your masters, which is just the entire thing [00:38:00] of like tradition in any form.

The dead are not your masters. You do not have to do something just because someone 200 years ago said it. 

Ellie: Yeah. They're not going to benefit from it now. 

Jen: Like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you don't have to do something that, like, your grandparents decided on, or your parents. Like, you don't have to always try to even a score.

There is no, like, leaderboard anywhere. If you're neglecting your people or just the important things in life, then you can't possibly be winning. So, trying to even a score, When there's no scoreboard is so ridiculous, but that's how so much like geopolitical, um, but also the concepts of maybe not community, but like groups of people deciding that like, Oh, they did this to us and we'll do that to them.

And they got one up on us this way. So then we have to beat them another way. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: And it's like, who are you? Who are you really competing with? Like, what are you actually [00:39:00] gaining here? 

Ellie: Yeah. All of this has reminded me of, of all things, a Dumbledore quote, which is, it goes on like, like, don't pity the dead, pity the living who have to kind of go on with what we have left them.

But yeah, it's, there's no point in, in, in being like, oh, well. Like family feuds, like you wronged my great grandmother and then she stole your, her husband and then X and Y and it's like, but, but what is the life that you are living now? And how is that, like, how, how is this benefiting you at all? Ah, Pratchett, why must you make me think so deeply on a late Thursday night?

I know all of this kind of like belief And I guess self image in the sense of like your image of your country and your society and your homeland on a whole is also obviously then tied into what we were already saying earlier about William DeWord and his newspaper and him writing about [00:40:00] these plucky like last regiment .

Holding their kind of, their last stand and how, when he, he's getting his kind of his, his second interview with, uh, Blouse, who is the only man in this group, as far as we're aware, and I was waiting for him to be a woman as well, and then I got to a point and I was like, no, no, he has to be the only man, doesn't he?

Um, but Sergeant Jackrum has such a passion. Or kind of for like patriotism, I guess. Uh, or there's such a, such a love for, for Borogravia in the, the kind of, the version of it that he sees in, uh, yeah, that they see in their mind. That on the way up to, like, bringing de Word, the reporter, up to Blouse, he Spins a thread, he spins a tale about Blouse so well that even though [00:41:00] Blouse's answers and demeanor and everything is like, so obviously this guy's a twat, like, who knows nothing about war, can't shave himself, is going to like, chop off his own hand if he tries to swing his sword once more.

But Jackrum really, like, wants his country. Or like wants their country to still be the, the shining, I guess, light that, that they kind of still think of it as. Like he doesn't want the world thinking that they're a bunch of nitwits running around in the forest. Um, he's trying to preserve his country's image in a way.

Jen: Mm. Yeah. Jackrum is an expert at manipulation, which we see with him in the Ruperts all the time. Yes. And it's definitely also there with. William DeWord, and there is this kind of like, I feel interplay between DeWord knows that this is not true, but it's what he's been told. And since it's what it's been told, that's what he's going to print.

Yes. [00:42:00] And yeah, it's like Jackrum's playing 4D chess, essentially. Though I have to ask, okay, off, off themes for a minute onto the stuff we usually talk about. Did you think that Jackrum was going to be a woman as well? 

Ellie: I went back and forth so many times, so many times that like, I'd say for the first half of the book where we had Blouse as a character, I was like, Blouse is definitely a woman.

And then I was like, Oh, somebody, I guess not. And then Jackrum, oh, it was like, I was all over the place. I was all, I like, I don't, but then I think at the end when Jackrum sends out all these different characters, I think then I'm like, okay, I think he is actually a man who has just protected all these people.

I think at the end I'm like, okay, yeah, no, it must be. And then it's no. So did you, did you think Jackrum was a madwoman? I mean, the first time? 

Jen: I don't know. Like it's been so long since the first time I read it. Yeah. I do feel like the, the [00:43:00] moment when he's standing talking to all like the, like General Frock and stuff.

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: That it, it feels like it solidifies that he's the one who's like, he's pushed everyone up the ranks. So he has to be a man, like he was the one who's on like the women's side, kind of thought they could be better. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: And I do remember being really like, Oh wait, no, Jackrum as well. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: But I don't remember of like how much I thought that he was or wasn't all the way through the book.

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: And just noting that I'm, I do stick with, uh, male pronouns for Jackrum because at the end of the book, he spent the entire time as a man. He's mentioned that he's dressed as a man, but then he leaves the army and continues. Life as a man, to like be with his son and it feels like it's, I know it's a fictional character in deference to the fictional character choosing to be a man, I would call him he.

Ellie: Yes. Thank you. Cause you clearly saw me just there and be like, wait, you've asked me about his gender. And now like this whole book is just a mind twist of girls being boys, then being girls, being boys that like, [00:44:00] where, and I, yeah, so I kind of broke down there. I think that is a very. Yeah. That's the right line to draw with that.

I also absolutely loved how Maladict, the vampire, how all, like none of the characters could decide if Maladict was male or female. And they were just kind of like, and Maladict, uh, yeah, it's whoever they are. And I, I, I almost kind of hoped that they would just leave Maladict as like an enigma. Like we just never knew.

I think, I think I might've, might've preferred Maladict to just be like unknown. At the end, like, it, like, it worked that they were also, uh, a female vampire that just didn't want the dramatics of floating around in billowy see through dresses or whatever. But like, yeah. 

Jen: Yeah. I get that. I do appreciate the way that we find out that Maladict is also pretending to be a man because she has this big reveal that she's like, okay.

She talks to Polly and she's like, I, I, I'm a woman. It's Maladicta. Um, I've been pretending all this time. And this secret that was so [00:45:00] integral to the entire regiment in their own ways for so long, and it was life changing and it was world shattering. And at this point, it's such a small thing that no one even cares about.

It doesn't even register as a blip for Polly. And, um, She has this great kind of like, there's a really simple quote when Polly is trying to get to, like, think through so many other problems that are going on, so much change to who they are now and where they are now. And Maladict almost feels like, well, Maladicta feels put out because she's like, I just told you my, my big secret.

And Polly is like, you're you, that's good. I'm me, whoever I am. Tonker's Tonker. It's all just people. 

Ellie: Mm hmm. 

Jen: And it's like, yeah, it's, yeah. Well, we've got bigger things going on, but also she doesn't care. Like it's, it's no longer important if you are a man or a woman or a vampire or whatever. You're just, you're just people.

Ellie: Yeah. And I guess like slightly related, not quite. Uh, I also, um, just on a like, [00:46:00] storyline, like practical level, loved that Igor, or Igorina, instead of having to cut her hair off, she literally just like surgically removed it and put it in a jar. That was just such a, like, perfect, I don't know, it was such a satisfying, um, of course.

Of course an Igor, Igor is just going to, like, they, they, they like inherit the hands of their great grandfather who was a fantastic surgeon. Of course she can take off her scalp and put on a different one to look like a boy more. Like, I don't know why I found that so pleasing, but I found it really, really pleasing.

Jen: I personally love the way that, um, Pratchett describes the Igor's approach to attacking with weapons to be randomized surgery. 

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how, like, growing up that she did needlework, like all good girls are supposed to do. And she's like, this makes me an amazing surgeon. I'm so, like, have you seen how small my stitches can [00:47:00] be?

Like, I was made for this. Why are girls taught needlework and then not actually allowed to do the kind of needlework that Igor's, Igor's are famous for? Like, yeah. 

Jen: Yeah. It's, it's similar to how women traditionally have done things like knitting and knitting is hugely mathematics based, uh, huge amounts of algebra going on and just do it in their head all along.

A lot of time, not even writing it down. They just know it. But then, but you know, math is a man's thing. Really? Like they had to turn to crochet to be able to model some. Um, I can't remember what it is, but like some physics concept or something like that. 

Ellie: Really? 

Jen: And crochet is the only way that you can model it in the real world.

And they're like, Oh my God, that is fascinating. And it's like, yeah, if you'd ever said that to like a woman who knew traditional 

Ellie: like. Crafts and practices and yeah, that's wild. I didn't know that. Maybe I should go learn how to crochet. 

Jen: I'm going to see if I can figure it out. So I'm going to Google crochet and physics.[00:48:00] 

Oh, okay. It is, I'm not gonna be able to pronounce this, Imobi Coricon. And there is a process of understanding quantum physics through crochet. It's a book. 

Ellie: Okay. Well, I don't know if that book will quite fit with the podcast. Like did, did, did you survive leaving cert maths? Like, is, is, is that where we're going with this?

Cause I, I don't know, want to know if I, or I don't know if I want to relive like the PTSD of. 

Jen: Yeah. I feel like maybe, maybe no, maybe we won't, we won't do that. Just look at the very strange cover. Leave it at that. 

Ellie: Perfect. Cool. 

Jen: Okay. So after all that discussion of theme, let's go back to the classics and look at the challenges.

How likely are we to survive being in the monstrous regiment? So the first we have down is running away from home. 

Ellie: Yes. Jen, were you the kind of child that climbed out of windows? If it takes you this long to think about it, [00:49:00] you are not the level of child that climbed out of windows that I was. 

Jen: I'm just thinking it depends on like your definition of climb out of windows.

Like, if I thought I could leave the house quicker by going through a window, I would. 

Ellie: Yes. Okay. 

Jen: I did once climb between two upstairs windows in my house because I got locked in a room and I wanted to get out. Um, this is a very complicated backstory to that, I got in a lot of trouble for it, but yeah. Oh my gosh.

Yeah, I, I have occasionally climbed out windows, never to run away from home, but I have climbed out of windows. 

Ellie: Nice. I, yes, I've climbed out of windows in similar ways in that I have gotten locked out of the house before and only had. The small like side window that has the, like the teeny upper, um, hatch and then the bottom half that would kind of open out more like a door, like more like a door, but it's like the, it's like the half of the window.

So it's not, not the full thing where the top bit was open enough that I could get my head and arm down low enough to [00:50:00] open the bottom hatch. To then climb through the bottom half of the window. So, um, and yes, I've climbed, yeah, if it's the faster way to leave the house, I've definitely done that kind of, that kind of window escapades.

So that part, no problem. Actually, as a kid, did you ever consider running away from home? No, when people are like seven, you're like, I'm leaving. 

Jen: Oh yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. 

Ellie: I'm not saying on a serious level. Yeah. 

Jen: Basically as a kid, a hundred percent. Why not? Yeah. Yeah. 

Ellie: We all packed our teddies in a bag and we're like going away forever at some point I feel like.

I feel like every child goes through something like that. Yeah. But I guess key to Pollys success is are you a planner? 

Jen: Oh yes. I'm a super planner. Like, getting everything together to. Like run away and escape that kind of society is very much like I would have my like 20 point list with all my sub points of all the things I needed to have perfect and then have it all happen at once.

[00:51:00] Definitely. 

Ellie: Yes. Same. I, I love a to do list. I love a list. I like for all of the trails and like long distance walking I do, myself and Carl do, I am the planner. I live for that kind of stuff. So, um, I feel like yes, I, I feel like we would both be quite successful running away from home in that, in that scenario.

Jen: Yeah. I feel like when you're older and you have like the confidence to do that as well. Mm-Hmm. . And to know that you are in an unjust position. 

Ellie: Yes. Yes. 

Jen: Definitely makes it easier. 

Ellie: And I also actually appreciate at the very, very end of the book when she's leaving home again and she leaves a note. She, she also takes mu uh, she also, um, does she take,

Jen: she takes a horse.

Ellie: She takes a horse, and she's like, yes, I've never taken a wage. So I'm having a horse and it's just like, perfect. Yes. 

Jen: Okay. So number one, yes, we, we could, we could get the running away, the planning to get everything down. No bother. 

Ellie: Yeah. We'll have walked in pants. Yeah. We know how that feels, [00:52:00] 

Jen: but pretending to be a boy.

in a like full on need to convince these people I am in fact a man, I have everything where it should be, and I don't have things where they shouldn't be, and I have the voice, I have the swagger, I have the mannerisms. How well do you think you'd do? 

Ellie: Not, I don't know if I would be as smooth as Polly is with this.

I, it's tricky because actually I think in the book at some point she says she's 19, or she's like, She's certainly old enough to be enlisting. She's just the wrong gender, I think, is, like, there's some sort of play on words where she kind of says that. 

Jen: Yeah, she's 19. 

Ellie: Yeah, but in my head, I guess she is a, uh, of a, like, willowy, slim disposition or, uh, figure.

So that kind of plays into her advantage. I, I don't know if I'd have to go down the Jackrum route of like, yeah, I feel like it would be harder for me to hide that I'm a woman than Polly does [00:53:00] or finds it. 

Jen: Like Polly makes a specific comment that like she's almost annoyed at how easy it is she can pass for being a boy.

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: And while, like, cut my hair off. No bother. I, especially like at our ages now, it's a lot harder. Like if you are younger, you do have a level of crossover of the like prepubescent boy kind of thing. Yeah. 

Ellie: Boyishness. Yeah, exactly. 

Jen: But I mean, actually, to be honest, since I was about 12 or something, it would have been very difficult for me to pass as a boy without lots of things being squished down and other things being padded out.

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. It depends. It depends how, how. intense a sports bra we would be allowed to bring with us into this other world. 

Jen: Yes, though I will note, okay, Shufti is pregnant. 

Ellie: Yeah, yeah. 

Jen: Like that. I'd say it, it would help with, you know, um, you probably have, uh, in the early stages of the pregnancy, yes, there would be a lack of a waist definition, you know?

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: Like with clothes, [00:54:00] I'd say that would help. 

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: But you got other areas that make, you know. Your boobs are going to grow. It's going to be a lot more obvious. But if Shufti can pretend, like can pass, then 

Ellie: That's very true. It also made me laugh in the book that like, whenever somebody found out that Shufti was pregnant, they were like, oh my god, is she gonna have a baby like today?

It's like, no, this takes time. It made me, it made me laugh every time. 

Jen: Yeah, it's all, Shufti's having a baby. What, here? Now? 

Ellie: Yeah. Um, so, okay. Yeah. While we both don't feel super confident about our cross dressing abilities, if Shufti can sneak in. Yeah. 

Jen: Okay. So like the, the physical appearance, I think is only one aspect of it.

The other aspect is the whole like Mulan concept, which is, you know, men punch each other to say hello kind of thing. 

Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. How low can you pitch your voice? Um, I don't know if I even want to try.

Okay, mannerisms of guys. [00:55:00] I, hmm. 

Jen: I feel like that would be easier for us than it is for Polly. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: Because we have less strict gender roles, particularly in like general conversation kind of stuff. 

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: Like there's a big point in the book that women say darn and gosh and golly. 

Ellie: Lawks! 

Jen: Whereas the men say damn and it's like, I feel like, If I curse, I'm not going to say darn, I'm going to say damn.

Ellie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same, same. Oh, that is very true. And I feel like we have both done sports that are quite male dominated. Specifically rock climbing when we started. Like we've been doing that for many years and, and many years ago, there would be a high percentage, high percentage men versus us in the gym.

Um, so I feel like we've been in more situations where you're surrounded by men or at least who you think are male and you build up a, like a, a comfortability. Comfortability in that situation, like you don't, you don't feel like you're standing [00:56:00] out necessarily. And also you work in tech, which is just a very male industry.

So, so at least we mightn't feel as like, as self conscious maybe. 

Jen: Yeah, probably not as self conscious. I feel like we could probably get like, The walk down and stuff like that. 

Ellie: But actually, I've seen you pretending to be my boyfriend, my boyfriend Carl, and that is hilarious. You've got all the gestures.

Actually, oh, how did I not remember this sooner? You had all the gestures. The shoulder shrug, shug, shoulder shrugs. The, the like, head upward nod thing, it, you had it down to a T. Actually, Jen, you're flying through this, what am I saying? You are, yeah, no problems to you. 

Jen: Cool, so I'll pretend to be Carl, basically.

Ellie: And I'll just walk along behind you and hopefully, and hope nobody notices. 

Jen: Sounds good. 

Ellie: Perfect. And do you, do you [00:57:00] think you would have thought about the pair of socks and the trousers without being told? 

Jen: Probably. Okay. I'm not sure if I would have come to the same solution of an actual pair of socks, but I would.

Have been like, I've definitely like, you have an area that can't buckle in essentially. I mean, 

Ellie: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, same. I don't think I would have thought of that as the solution, but it's a very good idea and it works perfectly comedically. So anyway. 

Jen: I kind of feel like I want to get a pair of socks and see how well it works.

Ellie: And try it out, see if you can walk around with them. Oh, well. If you do try, make sure you record a little, uh, postscript, uh, voice note of how you get on. Yeah. Bonus content. 

Jen: Let everyone know about how my thought process changes the second I get a pair of socks. 

Ellie: Yeah. And okay. We are now. Successfully military men or something.

Jen: [00:58:00] Hoo-ah 

Ellie: We have our regiment and we come across these signaling devices, people, we're not entirely sure, but, um, it's time to, to launch our first, I guess, raid in a way. 

Jen: So the actual raid section of this, the sneak up in the dark and then run at them with swords thing. Yes. I feel like I could do that. The operating a semaphore, I could not do that.

Ellie: No? 

Jen: I just get like distracted and confused. People would be like, do two, three, two, three. And I'd be like, five? Two plus three is five. But then they're like, no, just do two and then do three. And then we would have messed it up. And 

Ellie: yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. I will do the, the, the light signaling. How do you feel about the, cause like, I can definitely do the like, okay.

Two. Three, two, like whenever there's some, uh, random phone call where I have to get through to the bank or something. And they're [00:59:00] like, and now tell me back this 12 digit code, that 12 digit code is going to stay with me for three weeks. Like I will be like two, seven, nine, one, four, six, four, whatever. Like it will.

Become ingrained in me. So if I'm being told 2, 3, whatever, like, yeah, this, no problem. This is, I got this bit. I'm going to, that means you're going to have to try your hand at code cracking. 

Jen: I mean, if I, if I could write down the code and then try and figure it out, no bother. Okay. I'm pretty good at like pattern recognition and figuring those kinds of things.

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: Yeah. As long as I don't have to do the numbers side of it.

Ellie: Keep it all in your head. Yeah.

Jen: Yeah. If it could be, be on a piece of paper, preferably a piece of paper that you wrote it down on. Um, I could totally crack the code. I've got very niche skills. Skill sets. Okay. There's nowhere in between. 

Ellie: Oh, oh, me too.

Like I'm saying this about like, yes, the numbers, like no problem. But like when you were saying about getting easily distracted, I was also like, oh yeah, that's me too. But [01:00:00] also random long strings of numbers, like this kind of stuff. For some reason, yeah, that would click in my head. Yeah. I think the biggest, uh, most obvious challenge.

Of the book is breaking into the keep as washerwomen, but also you're breaking in using clothing that you have, uh, procured from the, acquired from the, uh, women of the night of the, that follow the army around. So, 

Jen: yeah, sorry, side note, we haven't talked about how like the armies are basically their own industry and their own cities and whatnot, which is fascinating and a fantastic thing, but we've already talked about too many things, so sorry, let's get back to this.

Ellie: Yes, exactly, exactly. Yes. So we are. Girls who've been dressing as boys who are now dressing as girls again. But at this point it is very much girls who dress as boys who dress as girls. It's not just going straight back to girl. It's, there are, there are, it's multi layered. 

Jen: Yeah. I feel like that would actually be kind of difficult.[01:01:00] 

After spending so long in one kind of way and then having to switch it so quickly. 

And, 

Also, having the pressure of, you are soldiers dressed as washerwomen to get in and you still have to maintain the soldier outlook, like you can't just like throw all that away. You can't be like, Oh, well now all I have to think about is washing.

It's like, no, you're still examining everything and going through all this, like, you know, this person has weapons. This is how I'm going to get such and such. This is like a pass through the keep. 

Ellie: Mm. 

Jen: And yeah, I feel that and also having to then like reel in all the like male coded habits that you would have had to try and ingrain in yourself for so long.

I think that would be more difficult than it looks initially. 

Ellie: Yeah. And I think it's It's like, it's the first time where they have to have that duality of, I can be smart and be a woman and I, or like, I can, I can be a soldier and be a woman, keeping that duality in their brain. And I guess that that's the kind of the first [01:02:00] step that we see of that in the book.

Yes. So yeah, how. Like, how are we going to, well, what's hilarious is that Blouse, the one man, goes off and, and like, is described as being the most ridiculously, like, 

Jen: Like the worst caricature of, like, older woman, fits her perfectly. person, pig, like. 

Ellie: Yeah, lawks is me. Let me check my bosom for my handkerchief while, yeah.

Jen: Uh, I really, I liked that they had all those mentions to Wrigglesworth and it was just so casually accepted that like, Oh, there is this captain in the army who cross dresses and he dresses up as a woman all the time. And that's just the thing that Wrigglesworth done. So when someone else was doing it, I was like, cool.

Just like Wrigglesworth. 

Ellie: Yeah. I also like that once the characters got in, like the women, um, got in after Blouse, Blouse having successfully got past the soldiers, but then all the washerwomen were like, Oh yeah, he's [01:03:00] obviously a man, but he is so good at ironing. Like what is with his ironing skills? So we were just gonna like let him stay here and do all the ironing because he just seems to love this.

So. 

Jen: Yeah. I wonder. Hmm. Like, so I'm just thinking on who manages to see who's pretending, like the washerwomen all know the blouse is faking it, but the men guarding the keep don't. In the, like, the regiment, Jackrum knows that all his little lads are women, but Strappi doesn't, who's a man, and Blouse doesn't.

So is it just that the women are considered more perceptive and they notice these things about each other? Or? Yeah. I don't know. I'm just, yeah. Sorry. That was a weird tangent. 

Ellie: No, no, no, no. Like it's a relevant tangent, but, but then, cause then also like, [01:04:00] while 90 percent of the women do seem to be more. Uh, perceptive for this or like the majority of the time, nobody guesses at Jackrum, like all of the, the, like the generals and the, like the people who have made it to the top of the army that he's helped get there, his little lads.

They all, I guess, started out as scared women pretending to be boys before they became in their heads boys. And Jackrum was the man. And so they never, never looked at him like again, in a different light or never kind of, yeah, maybe that was also just who Jackrum was meant to be. 

Jen: Also, I did just remember that Vimes knows straight away that they're women.

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: Yeah. And all the Ankh Morpork people can tell. They're like, Oh, yeah, that's an interesting picture that you posted. But the Borogravians can't because they're so like, well, they're dressed as soldiers and soldiers are men, [01:05:00] obviously. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: Sorry, detour. Total detour. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like the characters do kind of fail this task when they first get in.

They get pulled aside because they're like, you're obviously men dressed as women. Yeah. Yeah. One of them like pulls up her skirt and they're like, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. 

Ellie: Yeah. 

Jen: So it's one of those things that I feel like it's okay to fail at, but it really, I guess, depends. 

Ellie: Like you still get through, even if you fail.

Jen: Yeah, this is something that you could kind of prove. Yeah, exactly.

Ellie: But yeah, so our success is, is going to be down to whether or not we do the right kind of thing. Swooning and lawks-ing for these random soldiers, and even if they don't believe us, we're still going to get in because we are actually women. 

Jen: Okay, so then our last challenge is very in keeping with, I think, the overall tone [01:06:00] and themes of the book.

At the end, The regiment are kind of court martialed. I'm saying kind of because to be court martialed, they'd have to accept them being soldiers, but they get hauled up in front of the, the high command essentially. And after a lot happens, the general agrees That Polly and the others are allowed to stay in the army as long as they pretend to be men.

And they can continue this in the same way that General Frock himself has done this. And Polly stands up and says, No, we are women. You're either going to take us as women or you're not going to take us at all. But we are women and we are soldiers and that's what we are. And I guess the challenge is like, Would you stand up and say that, like, you get this offer, you can go home, you can get all this, this can be over.

Are you standing up in probably one of the most dangerous rooms you can stand up in and just pushing for your own [01:07:00] recognition? 

Ellie: That is such a hard challenge. That's such a hard thing to do because like they've been brought up, yeah, to be not quite court martials and then they're being offered. Like a pretty good option, I guess.

It's like, okay, we were going to, you know, like kick you out and, and all this stuff, but actually, you know what, you can, you can stay, you can keep doing what you're doing or what you have been doing. And then to actually kind of recognize that that isn't enough and to say it, I, I don't know. I think like, first of all, I think the fear.

Of being in that room, in front of this board, would have my mind, like, blank. It would just be little tweety birds going in a circle in there, like, or it would be 10, 000 thoughts at a hundred miles an hour. Would I be conscious enough to grab the one that's like, wait, we deserve more? I don't know. How are you faring in this, in this dilemma?

Jen: I don't, oh, I don't know. [01:08:00] I feel overall, not as well as Polly. I think I've got like. Two, two likely routes. One of them, so much is going on that I don't even think to say this. And then like 10 minutes later, I'm like, Oh shit, that's quite likely. But the other route is that, so let's say I realized this in the moment that no, this isn't right.

I need to stand up for me. I'd say it. But she gets a lot of pushback and I don't know how, I don't think I would stay as firm as she does. Yeah. For like, no, this is for me and this is what I want and this is what you are going to give me, no matter how many times I say, but we'll give you this other thing, or it's easier if you do such and such.

Um, I don't know if I'd have the, Guts to keep standing up, like I definitely do at once, but I don't know if I would keep going as long as she goes and as long as she needs to go for this to actually happen. Um, which like saying it, I'm like, wow, that's a [01:09:00] total personal failing, but still it's sure it is, but 

Ellie: the fact that I've been like, oh yeah.

Run away from home, climb out a window, like steal a horse, no problem. And then like the final challenge, stand up for yourself. And I'm like, I don't know, like, I don't know how that speaks to my, uh, I don't know, uh, yeah, to me as a person either. So. 

Jen: So far, I think our biggest challenges in like the entire series are related to standing up for ourselves or getting people to like us, which is just really weird.

It's interesting that 

Ellie: they're, yeah, that they are the ones that we feel the least confident in. Yeah, does this mean we should go and do like, Public speaking courses or something as part of, like, cause originally when we, when we came up with this podcast, I was like, Oh my God, does this mean that we're going to have a legitimate excuse to like, go and do archery or whatever, like try out these like things in the name of research for the podcast.

[01:10:00] Um, or as like, as things that we can go and do to be like, yeah, now we can actually like say if we can do this challenge or not. But as the podcast has now. started. I'm like, Oh no, the skill that we're lacking in the most is self confidence?

Jen: You know, we could gain self confidence by like archery or something. 

Ellie: Great. Great. Thank you for keeping that on the table for me because I'm so excited for us to at some point get to go and do that. 

Jen: Same. I really want to try that. 

Ellie: Great. 

Jen: Okay. So overall, do we think we are surviving being in the monstrous regiment?

Ellie: Yeah. I think so. I think we'll fit right in. 

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. 

Ellie: Nice. And as a mini, almost bonus round, so, Maladict has a coffee addiction. Like someone I know. As I have to direct this at you, Jen, because Maladict and I might, might share a personal, [01:11:00] uh, affliction here. So, can you source coffee for Maladict? Me? Or could you brew a suitable substitute for when I come down with the, the sleeps and the grumpies and the crazies?

Jen: Um, let's see. I feel like I definitely end up in the, you know, just try and, it wouldn't be a coffee, like I'd attempt to make a weird tea with like tree bark or something. Um, but. I don't, I would have the worry that I'd accidentally poison you , because I don't know about any edible stuff in forests. Um, 

Ellie: and I'd be too far gone at that point to, uh, to paying attention.

Jen: Yeah. I just feel like I know cinnamon is tree bark. 

Ellie: Mm-Hmm, 

Jen: . Um, so I'm gonna make you cinnamon tea and hope that this is the cinnamon tree . 

Just throw it a good snack. You'll die 

either. Either that, or you'll have like maple syrup, [01:12:00] tea, and be like, 

Ellie: what is this? Ooh. So when you said tea, I was kind of like, uh, and now the two teas, two teas you've proposed.

I'm like, Oh, okay. Okay. This isn't so bad. This isn't so bad. I am now very curious to try and roast anything else. And make it a coffee, the way that the, the girls try and roast acorns into a 

Jen: I thought it was pinecones. 

Ellie: Oh, it was pinecones.

Jen: I think acorns would be better, though. 

Ellie: I was gonna say, pinecones are a much worse choice.

Acorns, there is some Some, like, there's still not a bean, but, you know. 

Jen: Yeah, or like, Conkers or something. 

Ellie: Ooh. I feel like somebody must have tried this at some point. Like, we cannot be the ones that suddenly create Conker Coffee. 

Jen: That feels like something that you could have and like, put through, like, um, The, the filters and stuff like that with conkers and like mush them down and put a hot water in and you might get something that vaguely looks like a [01:13:00] coffee.

I'm going to say, I'm pretty sure it's pois- wait, no, it isn't poisonous. You can eat conkers. 

Ellie: Can you? 

Jen: I think you can eat conkers. I'm also now wondering if that's like the real term for them because 

Ellie: Oh, I definitely call them conkers. That's what they're called. Is that, is that, is that an Irishism that is so deep that we just assume that it is the word?

Jen: Um, maybe. Maybe. So they're horse chestnuts. From the horse chestnut tree. Conker's is technically the name of the game you play with them, but Everyone here just calls them conkers. 

Ellie: Oh, fascinating. I wouldn't like, now that you're saying it, I'm like, Oh, okay. Yeah. Yes. That's true. But my head is just like, yeah, they're conkers.

That's it. 

Jen: Oh, okay. So how many conkers can you eat? Conkers contain a poisonous chemical called ascolin. Um, so cannot be eaten by humans or most animals, including horses. 

Ellie: Ah, yeah. I knew that about the horses. Horses can do a lot of things. Silly horses. I know. They can't throw up. That's the problem. 

Jen: Can they throw down?

That's more [01:14:00] dangerous.

Yeah. So, uh, essentially what I've discovered is I'm going to accidentally poison you with Aesculin. 

Ellie: It's okay. That will, if nothing else, possibly like knock me out slash put me into a fever for enough days to pass that the coffee withdrawals might subside. And so by the time I get over being poisoned. I also might, might no longer be feeling the coffee withdrawals.

Jen: Well, you see, I feel like if this is specifically for you rather than a Maladict, it's actually a bit easier because if you don't have huge amounts of caffeine, I think you just sleep. So all I have to do is like carry you. 

Ellie: That is incredibly true. Yeah. 

Jen: Yeah. Okay, I kind of think that's all that we have for Monstrous Regiment.

Ellie: Yes. 

Jen: Thanks for listening. If you enjoy this podcast, please subscribe. You can find us on Instagram at ifwesurvivethis. We're also on threads. [01:15:00] Let us know of any books you'd like us to review. 

Ellie: Our next episode will be House of Sky and Breath by Sarah J. Maas.

Jen: Bye! 

Ellie: Bye! Bye! 

Bye!